England's fighter strength in Battle of Britain

[slaterat]

I have to agree with Hop, either count all the fighters in Europe for both sides or just the fighters available in the south for both sides, anything else is just misleading.

Parisfail wrote : It was the first time that the advantage rested with the defence, and not the the attack in air combat.

If that were the case then the RAF interceptors would outnumbered the escorts on a regular basis and consistantly been deployed at a higher altitude, which was not the case.

If you want to go through the Battle day by day the best resource I have read and own, is a copy of, Francis K Mason`s , Battle Over Britain. The most comprehensive book written about The Battle of Britain. It is meticuosly researched and detailed containing the most complete list of destroyed and damaged aircraft for both sides. It also uses primary sources from both sides.

Slaterat

 

[parsifal]

Like all these discussions the numbers are bit arbitrary. It is not invalid to include the total LW strength in the comparison. However, the reason I dont think that it should be, somewhat disingenously, is because the 13 gp was a clearly identifiable part of the functioning British defence, if only because it was the place that reserves were taken from, and burnt out sqns were sent to recover, this was not so much the case for the LW. Remember, that not even all of the LW assets attached to LFs 2 3 could get into the battle, let alone all of the LW period. What Hop is saying is that neither could all of the RAF. True enough, but in my opinion 13 Gp was still more closely linked to the battle, than were the assets of LF 1, 4 and 5.

Someone raised the issue that why wasnt the LW outnumbered in the individual battles???? Well, that because the attack still held some of the traditional advantages. The defence was still spread allover the entire south, from London right across to Plymouth. The attack could still choose where and when to attack (his inherent advantage), and whilst radar could reduce this advantage, by ensuring the fighters were kept on the ground, until the last possible moment, and not rotated in a continous cycle, it still meant that the defence was left scrambling and did not have that much time to assemble. This was mhy Mallory's "big wing" theories were such a crock....he wanted to let the attackers attack, and then intercept in group strength or above....this was dangerous for the defence because it discounted the actual damage done by the strike, and because it sucked the RAF into a fight much bigger than it could sustain.

 

[Hop]

LW on 29 june had nod deployed the force versus the british islands, (only 12 gruppen (of 2 so ~400 109s were in battle area

29th June is before the battle started. The Germans were still in the process of deploying.

I think that counting the fighters in the battle area is the way to go, but i also think that whilst you cannot include those numbers of the LW not in the battle (for the reasons stated above) you should include 13 gp because in a very real senser they were part of the battle.

It's not as clear as that. The Luftwaffe did move its fighters, for example in early August Stab, I and II JG 77 were in Norway. By late August II JG 77 was near Calais and taking part in the battle. That's about 40 of the 84 109s Deighton excludes that definitely did take part in the battle, and we don't know whether pilots were rotated from I JG 77 as replacements.

And some of the RAF squadrons were never moved south. A brief glance shows at least 5 that stayed in the north. Others were only in the south for brief periods.

Take as an example 245 squadron, which Deighton lists with 15 serviceable Hurricanes in 11 Group. On the 20th July they were transferred to Northern Ireland, where they remained for the rest of the battle. In the entire period, counting their time with 11 Group in July, they made 0 claims and suffered 0 losses.

As I said, I can see the merits of using either criteria, whether a unit was based close to the fighting, or total units available. I can't see the merits of using total units available for one side, and only those in the battle area for the other.

The germans actually wanted the big showdown, and never really got it. Dowding constantly looked to the next days battle before committing RAF assets to battle. It was a subtle , yet brilliant stratgegy that few even today seem to understand

That's true. Don't forget, though, that the Germans could rest their larger force by simply not committing units to action. If they did so they could maintain numerical parity and still rest units, or they could use overwhelming force on those days they chose.

err, would have to disagree here. The 109 figure you are quoting is exactly the same number as is published in the LW quarterly situation reports. The first qtr is March, the second June, the third September.....these quarterly reports are an averge, of the daily availability returns....so in effect they are a massive averaging excercise.

However, German LW strengths are consistently overstated because the LW includes crates that have been so badly shot up that they are basically only used for parts. To get accrate figures on flyable or potentially flyable crates, one has to deduct all those machines with more than 60% damage, and this was only done at the conclusion of each quarter. hence in the June qtr, the LW returns list 1107 SE fighters as available, but the September qtr, this figure had dropped to 932. This drop in September was not mostly due to the losses inflicted in the BOB, it was mostly due to the write offs that occurred in France and the Low countries finally being taken off the books. The write offs from the BOB dont show themselves until the December qtr, when the qtr shows an average daily strength of 832.

Are you sure of this? It sounds a bit of a bizarre way of doing things, especially as the statistics were not compiled on a quarterly basis, but weekly, or every 10 days. The quarterly part comes from a British summary of the original documents, showing figures for 3 monthly intervals. It's easy to see why the British would compile a shortened document, but very hard to understand why the Germans would compile strength documents weekly and only add in losses months later.

Anyway, I'll ask Richard Anderson, who supplied the 13 August/7 September figures in a posting on the AHF.

Same mistake is being made here....I bet your figures include the toatal write offs, of which by that time there were many.

I'm sure they do. They are figures for aircraft available, and serviceable, so they pretty much have to include losses. An aircraft lost, for any reason, can't show up as on hand, or serviceable, can it?

The RAF, incidentally did not use the same accounting system as the germans, so the figures you give for them may well be right

I think there's pretty much a broad equivalence between British and German counting of losses. The Germans counted damaged between 10 and 60%, the British Category 2, which meant damaged enough to require repair by an outside contractor. The Germans counted losses as damaged over 60%, the British counted aircraft not worth repairing and instead "returned to produce".

I think the biggest difference is the British were probably quicker to declare an aircraft Cat 2 as the ready availability of replacement aircraft meant they could get a flyable replacement quickly. For the Germans, with a shortage of fighters, there was probably more incentive to hold on to an aircraft and repair it on site, as a replacement wouldn't have been available immediately.

Unfortunately it is not a true like for like comparison, because the LW numbers are inflated by the inclusion of wrecks,

You are seriously suggesting the Luftwaffe were, every week or 10 days, reporting written off aircraft as "on hand" and "serviceable"? What would be the point of strength returns in that case?

Re the RAF I totally agree that all of Fighter command should be included but what was to stop the german forces replacing losses from their reserve or forces away from the front line?

That's the point, I don't think there was anything. Caldwell in his history of JG 26 describes a pilot, recently transferred from JG 77, being injured over Folkstone in early December.

Certainly 40 or so of the 84 109s Deighton excludes were by late August based near Calais and fighting in the battle. Same is true for ZG 76 with Bf 110s, based in Norway at the start of the battle, transferred to Northern France by late August.

 

[Vincenzo]

this are bases for all 109s tagjagdgruppen:
from 01/07/40 to 30/04/41

JagdGruppen Base Timeline
I/JG1 Plumetot 30.6.40 - 2.7.40 Carquebut 2.7.40 - 5.7.40 On 5.7.40 redesignated III./JG27
I/JG2 Beaumont-le-Roger 27.6.40 - 28.8.40 Mardyck 28.8.40 - 10.9.40 Beaumont-le-Roger 10.9.40 - 20.10.40 Mont-de-Marsan 20.10.40 - 26.10.40 Beaumont-le-Roger 26.10.40 - 3.41 Théville 3.41 - 8.6.41
II/JG2 Beaumont-le-Roger 27.6.40 - 28.8.40 Mardyck 28.8.40 - 23.9.40 Beaumont-le-Roger 23.9.40 - 20.10.40 Mont de Marsan 20.10.40 - 26.10.40 Beaumont-le-Roger 26.10.40 - 29.3.41 Brest 29.3.41 - 7.4.41 Beaumont-le-Roger 7.4.41 - 18.6.41
III/JG2 Frankfurt-Rebstock 29.6.40 - 28.7.40 Evreux-West 28.7.40 - 4.8.40 Le Havre-Octeville 4.8.40 - 28.8.40 Oye-Plage 28.8.40 - 14.9.40 Le Havre-Octeville 14.9.40 - 20.10.40 Mont-de-Marsan 20.10.40 - 26.10.40 Bernay 26.10.40 - 23.4.41 Rocquancourt 23.4.41 - 22.6.41
I/JG3 Grandvilliers 23.6.40 - 31.7.40 Colembert 1.8.40 - 20.9.40 St. Omer-Wizernes 20.9.40 - 24.10.40 Cujot 24.10.40 - 26.10.40 St. Omer-Wizernes 26.10.40 - 16.2.41 Mannheim-Sandhofen 16.2.41 - 5.5.41
II/JG3 Brombos 23.6.40 - 7.8.40 Wierre-au-Bois 7.8.40 - 23.9.40 Arques 23.9.40 - 19.2.41 Darmstadt-Griesheim 20.2.41 - 4.5.41
III/JG3 Baromesnil 28.6.40 - 2.7.40 Guines 2.7.40 - 20.7.40 Dortmund 21.7.40 - 8.8.40 Desvres 8.8.40 - 16.2.41 Gütersloh 16.2.41 - 5.5.41
I/JG20 St. Omer-Nord/Arques 24.6.40 - 2.7.40 On 4.7.40 redesignated III./JG51
I/JG21 Soesterberg 23.6.40 - 2.7.40 Bergen-op-Zoom 2.7.40 - 5.7.40 on 6.7.40 became III./JG54
I/JG26 Bönninghardt 26.6.40 - 15.7.40 Audembert 15.7.40 - 7.12.40 Abbeville-Drucat 7.12.40 - 9.2.41 Dortmund 9.2.41 - 1.4.41 Brest-Guipavas 1.4.41 - 1.6.41
II/JG26 Dortmund 23.6.40 - 21.7.40 Marquise-Ost 21.7.40 - 7.12.40 Abbeville-Drucat 7.12.40 - 9.2.41 Düsseldorf 9.2.41 - 3.4.41 Morlaix 3.4.41 - 1.6.41
III/JG26 Mönchen-Gladbach 22.6.40 - 1.7.40 Döberitz 1.7.40 - 21.7.40 Caffiers 21.7.40 - 10.11.40 Abbeville-Drucat 10.11.40 - 9.2.41 Bonn-Hangelar 9.2.41 - 1.4.41 St. Brieuc 1.4.41 - 1.6.41
I/JG27 Bremen-Neulanderfeld 28.6.40 - 2.7.40 Plumetot 2.7.40 - 28.8.40 Peuplingne/Leulinghen 28.8.40 - 31.8.40 Guines 31.8.40 - 30.9.40 Stade 1.10.40 - 21.10.40 Krefeld 21.10.40 - 25.10.40 Laval 25.10.40 - 27.10.40 Brest 27.10.40 - 1.11.40 Dinan 1.11.40 - 3.12.40 Döberitz 8.12.40 - 1.3.41 Comiso 1.3.41 - 10.3.41 München-Riem 10.3.41 - 4.4.41 Graz-Thalerhof 4.4.41 - 11.4.41 München-Riem 11.4.41 - 21.4.41 Ain-el-Gazala 21.4.41 - 7.12.41
II/JG27 Wunstorf 28.6.40 - 12.7.40 Leeuwarden 12.7.40 - 5.8.40 Crépon 5.8.40 - 28.8.40 Fiennes 28.8.40 - 24.9.40 St. Inglevert 24.9.40 - 5.11.40 Detmold 5.11.40 - 10.1.41 Wien-Schwechat 10.1.41 - 26.1.41 Bukarest-Baneasa 26.1.41 - 1.3.41 Vrba 1.3.41 - 13.4.41 Bitolj 13.4.41 - 17.4.41 Ptolomais 17.4.41 - 20.4.41 Larissa-Eleftherion 20.4.41 - 26.4.41 Athen-Eleusis 26.4.41 - 11.5.41
III/JG27 Carquebut 9.7.40 - 28.8.40 Guines 28.8.40 - 10.11.40 Diepholz 10.11.40 - 11.40 Vechta 11.40 - 2.41 Bukarest-Baneasa 2.2.41 - 2.41 Giulesti 2.41 - 3.41 Vrba 3.41 - 10.3.41 Belica 10.3.41 - 10.4.41 Bitolj 10.4.41 - 16.4.41 Kozani 16.4.41 - 21.4.41 Larissa-Eleftherion 21.4.41 - 26.4.41 Athen-Eleusis 26.4.41 - 2.5.41 Gela 2.5.41 - 24.5.41
I/JG28 Bukarest-Pipera 14.10.40 -4.1.41 On 4.1.41 redesignated III./JG52
I/JG51 Leeuwarden 21.6.40 - 12.7.40 Pihen/St. Inglevert 12.7.40 - 20.11.40 Coquelles 20.11.40 - 7.12.40 Krefeld 7.12.40 - 8.12.40 Mannheim-Sandhofen 8.12.40 - 9.2.41 Abbeville-Drucat 9.2.41 - 9.3.41 Coquelles 9.3.41 - 25.5.41
II/JG51 Desvres 22.6.40 - 7.8.40 Marquise-West 7.8.40 - 30.8.40 Jever 30.8.40 - 25.9.40 Aalborg 25.9.40 - 1.10.40 Stade 1.10.40 - 4.10.40 Vlissingen 4.10.40 - 5.10.40 Mardyck 5.10.40 - 7.12.40 Köln 7.12.40 - 8.12.40 Mannheim-Sandhofen 8.12.40 - 14.2.41 Mardyck 14.2.41 - 10.6.41
III/JG51 St. Omer-Nord 4.7.40 - 27.11.40 Peuplingues 27.11.40 - 7.12.40 Mannheim-Sandhofen 7.12.40 - 14.2.41 St. Omer-Wizernes 14.2.41 - 26.5.41
IV/JG51 Guise 21.11.40 - 7.12.40 Mannheim-Sandhofen 7.12.40 - 9.2.41 Le Touquet 6.2.41 - 16.4.41 Marquise-West 16.4.41 - 7.6.41
I/JG52 Zerbst 1.6.40 - 17.7.40 Neuruppin 18.7.40 - 21.7.40 Bayreuth 21.7.40 - 24.7.40 Zerbst 24.7.40 - 28.7.40 Bönninghardt 29.7.40 - 2.8.40 Cocquelles 2.8.40 - 31.10.40 Krefeld 1.11.40 - 26.12.40 Katwijk 27.12.40 - 20.2.41 Vlissingen 21.2.41 - 26.4.41 Westerland 27.4.41 - 28.5.41
II/JG52 Nordholz 27.6.40 - 6.8.40 Peuplingues 6.8.40 - 18.8.40 Jever 18.8.40 - 30.8.40 Aalborg 30.8.40 - 1.9.40 Husum 1.9.40 - 19.9.40 Stade 19.9.40 - 25.9.40 Peuplingues 25.9.40 - 5.11.40 Mönchen-Gladbach 5.11.40 - 22.12.40 Leeuwarden 22.12.40 - 15.1.41 Ypenburg 15.1.41 - 10.2.41 Berck-sur-Mer 10.2.41 - 26.2.41 Mâle 26.2.41 - 6.3.41 Maldeghem 6.3.41 - 15.4.41 Raversijde 15.4.41 - 27.4.41 Katwijk 27.4.41 - 24.5.41
III/JG52 Jever 26.6.40 - 1.7.40 Werneuchen 1.7.40 - 21.7.40 Leeuwarden 21.7.40 - 22.7.40 Coquelles 22.7.40 - 1.8.40 Zerbst 1.8.40 - 7.9.40 Neuruppin 7.9.40 - 17.9.40 Berlin-Schönwalde 17.9.40 - 12.10.40 Liegnitz 12.10.40 - 14.10.40 Bukarest-Pipera 14.10.40 - 25.5.41
I/JG53 Rennes 22.6.40 - 28.8.40 Neuville 28.8.40 - 15.9.40 Etaples 15.9.40 - 1.10.40 Le Touquet 1.10.40 - 21.12.40 Krefeld 19.12.40 - 2.4.41 Crécy-Dompierre 2.4.41 - 6.6.41
II/JG53 Dinan 22.6.40 - 28.8.40 Sempy 28.8.40 - 17.9.40 Berck-sur-Mer 17.9.40 - 20.12.40 Köln-Butzweilerhof 20.12.40 - 12.3.41 St. Omer-Arques 12.3.41 - 8.6.41
III/JG53 Rennes 22.6.40 - 10.7.40 Brest-Poulmic 10.7.40 - 24.8.40 Le Touquet-Etaples 24.8.40 - 19.12.40 Mönchen-Gladbach 19.12.40 - 18.3.41 Berck-sur-Mer 18.3.41 - 30.3.41 St. Brieuc 30.3.41 - 7.4.41 Berck-sur-Mer 7.4.41 - 17.4.41 Maldeghem 17.4.41 - 7.6.41
I/JG54 Eindhoven 21.6.40 - 19.7.40 Schiphol 19.7.40 - 26.7.40 Campagne-les-Guines 26.7.40 - 23.9.40 Jever 23.9.40 - 14.6.41
II/JG54 Waalhaven 4.7.40 - 8.8.40 Hermelinghen 8.8.40 - 22.9.40 Campagne-les-Guine 22.9.40 - 29.11.40 Bonn-Hangelar 29.11.40 - 3.12.40 Delmenhorst 3.12.40 - 27.1.41 Schiphol 27.1.41 - 4.2.41 Etaples 4.2.41 - 5.2.41 Le Mans 5.2.41 - 9.2.41 Cherbourg 9.2.41 - 17.2.41 Le Mans 17.2.41 - 24.3.41 Cherbourg 24.3.41 - 31.3.41 Graz-Thalerhof 31.3.41 - 2.4.41 Deta-Arad 2.4.41 - 9.4.41 Kecskemet 9.4.41 - 11.4.41 Deta-Arad 11.4.41 - 19.4.41 Belgrad-Semlin 19.4.41 - 3.5.41
III/JG54 Bergen-op-Zoom 5.7.40 - 8.40 Guines-Süd 8.40 - 21.10.40 Amsterdam-Schiphol 21.10.40 - 4.12.40 Dortmund 4.12.40 - 5.2.41 Charleville 5.2.41 - 9.2.41 Le Mans 9.2.41 - 3.3.41 Cherbourg-Querqueville 3.3.41 - 10.3.41 Le Mans 10.3.41 - 29.3.41 St. Dizier 29.3.41 - 1.4.41 Wien-Parndorf 1.4.41 - 4.4.41 Arad 4.4.41 - 7.4.41 Fünfkirchen 7.4.41 - 13.4.41 Deta-Arad 13.4.41 - 15.4.41 Pancevo 15.4.41 - 20.4.41 Belgrade-Semlin 20.4.41 - 28.4.41 Bukarest 28.4.41 - 3.5.41
I/JG76 Brüssel 22.6.40 - 4.7.40 On 4.7.40 redesignated II./JG54
I/JG77 Döberitz 22.5.40 - 20.7.40 Berlin-Tempelhof 21.7.40 - 31.7.40 Aalborg-West 31.7.40 - 25.8.40 Marquise 25.8.40 - 21.11.40 On 21.11.40 redesignated IV./JG51 Stavanger-Sola 1.2.41 - 1.42 In 1.42 redesignated I./JG5.
II/JG77 Kristiansand-Kjevik 9.5.40 - 9.11.40 Aalborg-West 9.11.40 - 10.11.40 Brest-Guipavas 20.11.40 - 30.3.41 Münchendorf 30.3.41 - 4.4.41 Deta 4.4.41 - 13.4.41 Vrba 13.4.41 - 16.4.41 Korinos 16.4.41 - 19.4.41 Larissa 19.4.41 - 22.4.41 Almiros 22.4.41 - 10.5.41
III/JG77 Trondheim-Vaernes 5.7.40 - 31.7.40 Döberitz 31.7.40 - 26.11.40 Münster-Handorf 26.11.40 - 28.11.40 Dinan 11.12.40 - 16.1.41 St. Brieux 16.1.41 - 24.3.41 Morlaix 24.3.41 - 28.3.41 Münchendorf 28.3.41 - 4.4.41 Deta 4.4.41 - 7.4.41 Vrba 7.4.41 - 10.4.41 Skoplje 10.4.41 - 13.4.41 Prilep 13.4.41 - 14.4.41 Axiopolis 14.4.41 - 18.4.41 Korinos 18.4.41 - 19.4.41 Larissa 19.4.41 - 22.4.41 Almiros 22.4.41 - 27.4.41 Tanagra 27.4.41 - 11.5.41
I/LG2 St. Inglevert/Pihen 20.6.40 - 12.7.40 Jever 12.7.40 - 8.8.40 Wevelghem 8.8.40 - 22.8.40 Calais/Marck 22.8.40 - 5.11.40 Köln-Butweilerhof 5.11.40 - 26.12.40 Calais/Marck 26.12.40 - 30.3.41 Wien 30.3.41 - 6.4.41 Radomir 6.4.41 - 14.4.41 Bitolj 14.4.41 - 17.4.41 Ptolemais 17.4.41 - 20.4.41 Larissa 20.4.41 - 27.4.41 Eleusis 27.4.41 - 11.5.41
II/186 Trondheim 11.6.40 - 5.7.40 On 5.7.40 II./186 was redesignated III./JG77

 

[Vincenzo]

Look in the list, we can know what gruppen are in battle area, unlucky not many 109s, i think all agree that the gruppen in battle area are what deployed in nederland, belgie and france (but mont de marsan, and other south base if there are i don't see).

 

[ralphwiggum]

WOW! I wish I was as smart as you guys!! After reading your postings, I realize how dumb I am! I've GOT to do more reading! I really tip my hat to all of you

 

[Frantish]

Hello all,

Is there detailed info on how many of each 109 was used in BoB?

They had
109E-1
109E-3
109E-4
109E-4/N (I think)
and maybe
109E-7

Best estimates help.

TY

 

[FlyingPencil]

awww nuts...

 

[Kurfürst]

Hello all,

Is there detailed info on how many of each 109 was used in BoB?

They had
109E-1
109E-3
109E-4
109E-4/N (I think)
and maybe
109E-7

Best estimates help.

TY

Hi,

I have exact numbers for the types in the battle, but from memory the MG armed E-1 and cannon armed E-3s were roughly 1:1 ratio at the beginning of the battle. Soon after the battle starterd practically all E-3s were converted to E-4s (these differed only in different cannon mechanism that enabled them firing high capacity explosive shells, so the difference was marginal indeed).

There were about a Wing or 30-40 E-4/Ns in the battle from July, but later in the automn other types were built/converted with the DB 601N engine, so by the end of the year a bit over a hundred were around of these types. The E-7 (capable of carrying droptanks) appeared in the end of August, and initially there were but a few dozen of them, but by October-November others were retrofitted with the DT kit, practically making them E-7s, and in the meantime a couple of hundred E-7s were built. No exact numbers for them, except for the end of August though.

Basically E-1 and E-4 were the main types.