Enola Gay, heroism or insanity?

[GregP]

Hi Tom,

What I said came from a WWII German woman who lived through it. If you choose not to believe her, that's OK. We have two people in our volunteer group whose parents were from WWII Germany and they tell the same tale. Hitler didn't disarm them right away; I misspoke. He did it at the earliest opportunity he had. Since that comes from several Germans who were either there or had parents who were, and these people never even met each other, I'll probably stick with that unless and until it can be proven wrong.

My guess is by mid 1941, very few people had anything other than hunting weapons, perhaps some Mauser K96's and some K98's plus a handfull of other rifles. Trying to depose a strong military armed with automatic weapons with an old hunting rifle would be interesting.

However, I'll not argue it with you should you choose to believe differently. We have seen things other than the same way before, and that's OK. If I cared a lot, I might try to confirm that, but it's down about 1,000th on my priority list. Mostly I'm working on aircraft restoration and data entry of WWII data concerning the aerial war.

In the scheme of things as I see them isn't all that critical anyway. Civilians rarely like what their government is doing when it results in them getting bombed and killed. The people in Vietnam didn't like the war, either when I was there.

Cheers.

 

[GregP]

Hi Tom,

What I said came from a WWII German woman who lived through it. If you choose not to believe her, that's OK. We have two people in our volunteer group whose parents were from WWII Germany and they tell the same tale. Hitler didn't disarm them right away; I misspoke. He did it at the earliest opportunity he had. Since that comes from several Germans who were either there or had parents who were, and these people never even met each other, I'll probably stick with that unless and until it can be proven wrong.

My guess is by mid 1941, very few people had anything other than hunting weapons, perhaps some Mauser K96's and some K98's plus a handfull of other rifles. Trying to depose a strong military armed with automatic weapons with an old hunting rifle would be interesting.

However, I'll not argue it with you should you choose to believe differently. We have seen things other than the same way before, and that's OK. If I cared a lot, I might try to confirm that, but it's down about 1,000th on my priority list. Mostly I'm working on aircraft restoration and data entry of WWII data concerning the aerial war.

In the scheme of things as I see them isn't all that critical anyway. Civilians rarely like what their government is doing when it results in them getting bombed and killed. The people in Vietnam didn't like the war, either when I was there.

Cheers.

 

[GrauGeist]

Just for the record, the bulk of the Wehrmacht and the SS Panzergrenadiers carried 8mm K98 Mausers...

And Tom is correct in the fact that the German government relaxed the civilian firearm ownership after the transition to the National Socialist party from the old republic.

One glaring exception: Jews were not allowed to own or manufacture firearms, accessories or ammunition. No exceptions.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I thought that until after take off, only the officers onboard knew what was going to happen.

Considering the Flight Engineer, radar and radio operator were essential crew members, I would guess that they knew what was going to happen as they had to train together prior to the drop and the FE would be part of the flight planning. The remaining enlisted crew members, maybe.

I found this about Tibbets naming the plane after his mother...

My thoughts turned at this point to my courageous red-haired mother, whose quiet confidence had been a source of strength to me since boyhood, and particularly during the soul-searching period when I decided to give up a medical career to become a military pilot. At a time when Dad had thought I had lost my marbles, she had taken my side and said, "I know you will be all right son."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I believe the Enola Gay was named before it was selected to be the carrier of the "new wonder weapon."

It was named the painted on the aircraft the day before the mission.

 

[GregP]

Hi Joe,

Are you sure about htat? I thought he selected the aircraft while it was still on the assembly line, before 18 May 1945, and before they knew which aircraft would be used. I know Tibbets was the Commander of the 509th Composite Group, but I didn't think he knew which bird would drop any bombs when he selected it.

Perhaps I am in error there.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi Joe,

Are you sure about htat? I thought he selected the aircraft while it was still on the assembly line, before 18 May 1945, and before they knew which aircraft would be used. I know Tibbets was the Commander of the 509th Composite Group, but I didn't think he knew which bird would drop any bombs when he selected it.

Perhaps I am in error there.

from Wiki with references...

"The name was painted on the aircraft on 5 August by Allan L. Karl, an enlisted man in the 509th.[5] Regularly assigned aircraft commander Robert Lewis was unhappy to be displaced by Tibbets for this important mission, and became furious when he arrived at the aircraft on the morning of 6 August to see it painted with the now-famous nose art."

 

[GrauGeist]

He went through and hand selected some of the Silverplate airframes...Bock's Car was one of them.

 

[nuuumannn]

The Enola Gay was one of 15 Silverplate B-29s of the 509th CG from the Glenn L Martin factory at Bellevue Nebraska. 44-86292 was originally allocated to Capt Robert Lewis, but Tibbets as C/O appropriated the aircraft for his use; apparently Lewis was none too happy.

 

[parsifal]

Wars themselves are insane, but within that bubble, the mission by the Enola Gay was anything but insane. It made perfect sense, and tangibly shortened the war, removing from the Japanese the mania for a macabre form of mass suicide. Finally Hirohito was able to speak out and offer surrender.

The war was insane. Ending the war, and anything that led to that end, was perfect sense.

And the crews of the Enola Gay were heroes, because right until the end, no-one was completely sure they would survive the blast.

 

[stona]

One glaring exception: Jews were not allowed to own or manufacture firearms, accessories or ammunition. No exceptions.

Because after 1934 Jewish Germans were no longer German citizens. They were re-classified as 'Staatsangehorige', usually translated as Subjects of the State. The right (or requirement) to bear arms has always been closely linked to citizenship from the days of the Greek city states to Revolutionary France, Switzerland and the United States.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GregP]

I think everybody knows the 8mm Mauser was standard German issue. It's still cannon fodder for a machine gun crew.

It would be very interesting to hear from some Germans since I already have and they disagree with the contention that they weren't disarmed largely. Not at first, but when the Nais came into real power and simply took over.

Over here in the U.S.A we had a period of prohibition before the war. Does anyone in here really think drinking stopped becuase there was a statute prohibiting it? It's illegal to whistle underwater in Vermont, but do you think anyone would be prosecuted for it today?

Laws can say a lot of things. What matters is what happens.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think everybody knows the 8mm Mauser was standard German issue. It's still cannon fodder for a machine gun crew.

It would be very interesting to hear from some Germans since I already have and they disagree with the contention that they weren't disarmed largely. Not at first, but when the Nais came into real power and simply took over.

Over here in the U.S.A we had a period of prohibition before the war. Does anyone in here really think drinking stopped becuase there was a statute prohibiting it? It's illegal to whistle underwater in Vermont, but do you think anyone would be prosecuted for it today?

Laws can say a lot of things. What matters is what happens.

Well being that my direct family is German, not Americans descendent from Germans, but rather Germans with German blood living in Germany (so I will take their word over some descendants living in Cali), and in about an hour I will be skyping with several of them who lived through the war.

I will ask them their take on the matter...

 

[tyrodtom]

No matter how well armed you were, it's not going to make any difference when 2 car loads of Gestapo agents come to get you at 3am. Even armed people have to sleep.

Before and during WW2 a German refugee stayed in my home, my older sister Leyetta is named after her. She left to go back to Germany in the early 50s. Since I was born in 1947, I barely remember her.
But the congregation I attended as a kid also sponsored two German families who decided they no longer wished to remain in Germany after WW2, from these people being close I was learning about Germany's decent into the nightmare of the 3rd Reich before I was even in school.

When I was in Germany in the middle 70s, I visited some of the families of these people still in Germany.

My impression has come to be that Germany had underwent such chaos in the late 20s and early 30s, that anyone who brought a little stability and JOBS was going to get a free hand to do whatever else they wanted. By the time the German population realized what that whatever else entailed, it was too late to them personally to do anything about it. Having a Mauser, or Lugar wouldn't make any difference.

Thousands of Germans did protest and resist in their own way, if you'll just take the time to look at the long list of people beheaded during the 3rd Reich, you might be surprised at what you could lose your head for during that time. And your surviving family would receive a bill for the execution expenses.

 

[stona]

Hans Scholl, Sophie Scholl and Christoph Probst. All executed by guillotine, February 1943.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Just got done skyping with Germany...

Here is the way it was explained by my wifes Grandfather. The 1919 German laws completely forbade the ownership of any firearms. In 1928 new legislation was made that eased the laws. Anyone who was not a criminal basically could own and sell firearms. The legislation basically decided what kind of licenses you where required to have (for owning and for selling) and introduced said licenses.

In 1938 the Nazis under Hitler further changed the law.

Under Hitler firearm ownership was further eased. Licenses where now only required for hand guns. No licenses where required for rifles of any kind. The legal age to own was reduced from 20 to 18.

The only people who restricted where the Jews.

A very simple search of the internet, and I found the verbatum laws. This confirming what my wife's grandfather just told me.

So NO the idea that the German people where disarmed is nothing more than a myth and lie. Probably started by pro gun ownership activists here in the US to scare the sheep into saying that this is what will happen to them when the govt. takes their guns.

Note: I am a gun owner and pro gun ownership activist, I just don't buy into the BS politics of it.

As for the idea that there was no German resistance against the Nazi's, that is untrue as well. Over 75,000+ German members of the "Widerstand" where executed by the Nazis.

75,000 is a lot of people against the Nazis and does not take into account those that where not caught or survived the camps and execution.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hans Scholl, Sophie Scholl and Christoph Probst. All executed by guillotine, February 1943.

Very nice monument for them at the University of Munich.

Visited it several times.

 

[GrauGeist]

Greg, the German infantry was so well drilled, they could work their Mausers quickly and with near-Olympic precision. So they may seem like "cannon fodder" but as history has shown, they did very well with a bolt-action rifle.

Well being that my direct family is German, not Americans descendent from Germans, but rather Germans with German blood living in Germany (so I will take their word over some descendants living in Cali), and in about an hour I will be skyping with several of them who lived through the war.

Ouch! Hey now! Don't lump all of us Californians in there!

Aside from having direct Prussian and German family members, I grew up around a former Luftwaffe pilot, an SS panzergrenadier and a Feldgendarmerie. So I am somewhat qualified on various things

And the quote by Hitler that is most often associated with "gun control" was actually paraphrased. Hitler was not talking about Gun Control for Germany, he was refering to the provisions of the new laws that restricted gun ownership by Jews and non-aryans.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Greg, the German infantry was so well drilled, they could work their Mausers quickly and with near-Olympic precision. So they may seem like "cannon fodder" but as history has shown, they did very well with a bolt-action rifle.


Ouch! Hey now! Don't lump all of us Californians in there!

Aside from having direct Prussian and German family members, I grew up around a former Luftwaffe pilot, an SS panzergrenadier and a Feldgendarmerie. So I am somewhat qualified on various things

And the quote by Hitler that is most often associated with "gun control" was actually paraphrased. Hitler was not talking about Gun Control for Germany, he was refering to the provisions of the new laws that restricted gun ownership by Jews and non-aryans.

My post was not directed at you, but rather someone who always thinks they are right because they talk with someone who new someone who new someone at an airport in Cali...

As if no one else has access to "truth and facts".

 

[Marcel]

Yesterday I saw the Enola Gay live in Washington. Must say I was quite impressed. It's a beautiful and deadly aircraft and I'm glad it survived.
Were the crew heroes for doing this mission? That's hard to say. They were heroes as everyone else who fought for our freedom and did their duty. But think of the sacrifice made by thousants of women, children and old people in the city f Hiroshima and Nagasaki, who also died or suffered for many years after this for our freedom. The atomic bomb is a terrible weapon, not only it creates a tremendous blast killing many, but it keeps on killing for decades after it exploded. The victims usually suffered much all those years. Let's hop we'll never have to use one again.