Enola Gay, heroism or insanity?

[GregP]

You're telling me stuff I already know above. I was not thinking in any way of pre-1942 Germany; I was thinking much more along the lines of very late 1941 and onwards. Since I live in the U.S.A., I tend to think of WWII in terms of 1942 - 1945 since that is the extent of our active involvement. We didn't declared war until Peral Harbor though we did supply machines, arms, food, and clothing, etc. before that time.

Adler do your relatives have any different experiences with that after 1941? If not, then my sources must have experienced other than your family did. I suppose that's not unlikey in the least given the fact that a war was on. Even so, if they did not experience difference after 1941, then maybe the disarming I was told about was very localized, but the people who told me were Germans from Germany. I didn't exactly make up what they said ... I don't do that. 2 of the 3 were from around the Austrian border. I don't know where the third one was from. She was the young woman who was a Luftwaffe aircraft spotter when the war ended. She had some very interesting stories of wartime Germany. Her husband met her while he was guarding her just after the war and confirmed some of them separately while we shot billiards.

While you may perceive it differently, I also owned an 8 mm Mauser along with many other weapons. I gave the Mauser to a good friend who still hunts with it. It has an original German scope on it. I still retain a good selection of other guns including a VERY clean WWI 6.5 x 55 Mauser whose bore looks brand new. I am anti-crime but not in any way anti-gun.

 

[Njaco]

No matter how well armed you were, it's not going to make any difference when 2 car loads of Gestapo agents come to get you at 3am. Even armed people have to sleep.

Before and during WW2 a German refugee stayed in my home, my older sister Leyetta is named after her. She left to go back to Germany in the early 50s. Since I was born in 1947, I barely remember her.
But the congregation I attended as a kid also sponsored two German families who decided they no longer wished to remain in Germany after WW2, from these people being close I was learning about Germany's decent into the nightmare of the 3rd Reich before I was even in school.

When I was in Germany in the middle 70s, I visited some of the families of these people still in Germany.

My impression has come to be that Germany had underwent such chaos in the late 20s and early 30s, that anyone who brought a little stability and JOBS was going to get a free hand to do whatever else they wanted. By the time the German population realized what that whatever else entailed, it was too late to them personally to do anything about it. Having a Mauser, or Lugar wouldn't make any difference.

Thousands of Germans did protest and resist in their own way, if you'll just take the time to look at the long list of people beheaded during the 3rd Reich, you might be surprised at what you could lose your head for during that time. And your surviving family would receive a bill for the execution expenses.

That sounds like the last 6 years here in the States!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You're telling me stuff I already know above. I was not thinking in any way of pre-1942 Germany; I was thinking much more along the lines of very late 1941 and onwards. Since I live in the U.S.A., I tend to think of WWII in terms of 1942 - 1945 since that is the extent of our active involvement. We didn't declared war until Peral Harbor though we did supply machines, arms, food, and clothing, etc. before that time.

Adler do your relatives have any different experiences with that after 1941? If not, then my sources must have experienced other than your family did. I suppose that's not unlikey in the least given the fact that a war was on. Even so, if they did not experience difference after 1941, then maybe the disarming I was told about was very localized, but the people who told me were Germans from Germany. I didn't exactly make up what they said ... I don't do that. 2 of the 3 were from around the Austrian border. I don't know where the third one was from. She was the young woman who was a Luftwaffe aircraft spotter when the war ended. She had some very interesting stories of wartime Germany. Her husband met her while he was guarding her just after the war and confirmed some of them separately while we shot billiards.

While you may perceive it differently, I also owned an 8 mm Mauser along with many other weapons. I gave the Mauser to a good friend who still hunts with it. It has an original German scope on it. I still retain a good selection of other guns including a VERY clean WWI 6.5 x 55 Mauser whose bore looks brand new. I am anti-crime but not in any way anti-gun.

Of course they have experiences post 1941. They where living in Germany and its annexed regions. Nothing changed from 1938 to 1941 or to 1945...

There was no disarming. Fact...

I know the Mauser well. I have one in a gun case right here in my house.

 

[GregP]

Great gun, the Mauser. It was more or less the world standard for a great rifle for many years.

 

[pbehn]

The reason why I originally asked if Colonel Tibbets regretted naming his aircraft after his mother is that even in 2015 any discussion with the name "Enola Gay" flies off on a tangent frequently discussing the holocaust. What does the bombing of Hiroshima have to do with Nazi Germany restrictions (real or imagined) on Jews

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The reason why I originally asked if Colonel Tibbets regretted naming his aircraft after his mother is that even in 2015 any discussion with the name "Enola Gay" flies off on a tangent frequently discussing the holocaust. What does the bombing of Hiroshima have to do with Nazi Germany restrictions (real or imagined) on Jews

I have no clue. Good question!

Almost every thread strays off topic from time to time. It almost always finds its way back though.

For the sake of historical accuracy though, I will not let even sidetracked conversations that are false go unanswered.

 

[pbehn]

I have no clue. Good question!

Almost every thread strays off topic from time to time. It almost always finds its way back though.

For the sake of historical accuracy though, I will not let even sidetracked conversations that are false go unanswered.

I have no problem with that at all, its just sad that a loving mothers name who did her best for her son, a formidable and talented pilot serving his country as his country wanted, asked and required him to do, gets dragged into discussions of the darkest side of humanity. The Enola Gay and Mrs Tibbets had nothing to do with Nazi history and politics.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have no problem with that at all, its just sad that a loving mothers name who did her best for her son, a formidable and talented pilot serving his country as his country wanted, asked and required him to do, gets dragged into discussions of the darkest side of humanity. The Enola Gay and Mrs Tibbets had nothing to do with Nazi history and politics.

Agreed...

 

[GregP]

I don;t know either, It was one paragraph out of 8, and had little to do with anything but war in general, and somehow blossomed from there.

I see no one has said anything about the other 7 paragraphs in my post, which were exactly on topic. That seems to happen a lot in here, too. In that one apparently errant paragraph, I said I knew three Germans who had made that claim and the rest sort grew from spotaneous fertilizer. I still know them and they still said they experienced what they experienced.

Maybe the other seven paragraphs are suitably on subject.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don;t know either, It was one paragraph out of 8, and had little to do with anything but war in general, and somehow blossomed from there.

I see no one has said anything about the other 7 paragraphs in my poost, which were exactly on topic. That seems to happen a lot in here, too. In that one apparently errant paragraph, I said I knew three Germans who had made that claim and the rest sort grew from spotaneous fertilizer. I still know them and they still said they experienced what they experienced.

Maybe the other seven paragraphs are suitably on subject.

I only address what I want to...

Especially when what is being addressed is off topic.

Is that ok?

 

[GregP]

Sorry Addler, wasn't aimed right at you.

It was a general obsevation that if I post 1,000 words about something and 10 of them are off-subject, that's what gets attention. I have no idea why and it is up to nobody but me to make sure that there aren't any off-subject sentences in a reply, but it gets frustrating when someone else a few posts later says essentially the same thing and it generates on-topic discussion.

 

[tyrodtom]

It doesn't matter if it's on subject or off subject. If you say something someone else see's as incorrect, they're likely to say something.

What's new about that ? It doesn't happen just to you.

 

[GrauGeist]

One thing I have always found interesting, is that Tibbets and Enola Gay always seem to be at the forefront of the Atomic Bombings, but if you mention Bockscar or Maj. Sweeny, people draw a blank.

 

[GregP]

You know Tom, I didn't SAY anything incorrect. I repeated what someone who grew up in Nazi Germany told me face-to-face not once, but several times. Apparently it wasn't that way for everybody and I can accept that. But it was also just as apprently that way for my friends.

Not all police departments over here in the U.S.A treat you the same either. So I'm not surprised in the slightest though I believe Addler and his family experienced what he said thay did. It just goes to show not everyone was treated the same and that's not all that unusual in war or peace.

I lack the ability to understand why peopple can't understand that not everyone experiences things the same way or, even if they do, they many times come away with diametrically opposed viewpoints of the same events. It doesn't mean either side is wrong. It means they perceive things differently, even given the same events and viewpoint.

 

[tyrodtom]

One of my good racing buddy's mother was a former German citizen, his father met her after WW2, married her and brought her home.
My friend was sort of multi cultured, spent some summers with his mothers family in Germany.

In the 90s his mother decided to bring her ailing mother to America so she could care for her in her old age.

This is one of my best friends so I'm around him and his family a lot.

When his grandmother came to America my friend warned me, " Don't mention Hitler to Oma ( grandma) because you won't like what you hear "
Here was a 85 year old German who still though Herr Hitler was the greatest thing that ever happened to Germany.

Was I supposed to believe everything I heard from her Greg ???
Or should I listen and judge it a little with pretty well known facts ?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

One thing I have always found interesting, is that Tibbets and Enola Gay always seem to be at the forefront of the Atomic Bombings, but if you mention Bockscar or Maj. Sweeny, people draw a blank.

History seems to forget #2 (maybe the only exception would be Buzz Aldrin). As you know the Nagasaki strike was a cluster. Althouh the mission was accomplished, Sweeny made some horrific mistakes. From Wiki...

"Bockscar did not have sufficient fuel to reach the emergency landing field at Iwo Jima, so Sweeney and Bock flew to Okinawa. Arriving there, Sweeney circled for 20 minutes trying to contact the control tower for landing clearance, finally concluding that his radio was faulty. Critically low on fuel, Bockscar barely made it to the runway on Okinawa's Yontan Airfield. With only enough fuel for one landing attempt, Sweeney and Albury brought Bockscar in at 150 miles per hour (240 km/h) instead of the normal 120 miles per hour (190 km/h), firing distress flares to alert the field of the uncleared landing. The number two engine died from fuel starvation as Bockscar began its final approach. Touching the runway hard, the heavy B-29 slewed left and towards a row of parked B-24 bombers before the pilots managed to regain control. The B-29's reversible propellers were insufficient to slow the aircraft adequately, and with both pilots standing on the brakes, Bockscar made a swerving 90-degree turn at the end of the runway to avoid running off the runway. A second engine died from fuel exhaustion by the time the plane came to a stop. The flight engineer later measured fuel in the tanks and concluded that less than five minutes total remained."

"After Bocks Car returned to Tinian, Col. Tibbets recorded that he was faced with the dilemma of considering "if any action should be taken against the airplane commander, Charles Sweeney, for failure to command." After meeting on Guam with Col. Tibbets and Major Sweeney, General Curtis LeMay, chief of staff for the Strategic Air Forces, confronted Sweeney, stating "You ****** up, didn't you, Chuck?", to which Sweeney made no reply. LeMay then turned to Tibbets and told him that an investigation into Sweeney's conduct of the mission would serve no useful purpose"

 

[drgondog]

You know Tom, I didn't SAY anything incorrect. I repeated what someone who grew up in Nazi Germany told me face-to-face not once, but several times. Apparently it wasn't that way for everybody and I can accept that. But it was also just as apprently that way for my friends.

90% of my disagreements with you are a direct result of stating as 'facts', a conversation or multiple conversations of what you 'heard' versus what You Know by education, research knowledge. All to often you insert "What I believe, or want to believe" - then declare it as fact.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

90% of my disagreements with you are a direct result of stating as 'facts', a conversation or multiple conversations of what you 'heard' versus what You Know by education, research knowledge. All to often you insert "What I believe, or want to believe" - then declare it as fact.

"I heard from someone who knows someone... at the airport/museum... I will take their word over any one elses... Believe them if you wish..."

 

[GrauGeist]

Agreed, Joe!

Enola Gay's mission went off without a hitch and interestingly enough, one of the two B-29s that accompanied Tibbets on the mission was later named "Nessecary Evil" (44-86291).

Sweeny's mission was a cluster from the word go, though: a fuel transfer pump failed, bad weather at the rendezvous, missed meeting one of the instrument B-29s, smoke and clouds obscuring primary target Kokura, Japanese AA and fighter defenses alerted, Nagasaki partially obscured by clouds making a difficult aiming solution and then the landing fiasco as you mentioned.

* I almost forgot to mention that one of Mom's co-workers had been on the second mission and had personal photos he took during that mission (which was a major no-no) and among them was a photo showing Japanese fighters ascending for an intercept far below. I always wondered why the fighters didn't continue to press the attack, but it occurs to me that they may have been destroyed in the detonation due to thier much lower elevation at the time.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Agreed, Joe!

Enola Gay's mission went off without a hitch and interestingly enough, one of the two B-29s that accompanied Tibbets on the mission was later named "Nessecary Evil" (44-86291).

Sweeny's mission was a cluster from the word go, though: a fuel transfer pump failed, bad weather at the rendezvous, missed meeting one of the instrument B-29s, smoke and clouds obscuring primary target Kokura, Japanese AA and fighter defenses alerted, Nagasaki partially obscured by clouds making a difficult aiming solution and then the landing fiasco as you mentioned.

* I almost forgot to mention that one of Mom's co-workers had been on the second mission and had personal photos he took during that mission (which was a major no-no) and among them was a photo showing Japanese fighters ascending for an intercept far below. I always wondered why the fighters didn't continue to press the attack, but it occurs to me that they may have been destroyed in the detonation due to thier much lower elevation at the time.

Would love to see those photos, priceless IMO!