Erich Hartmann, Gerard Barkhorn or Gunther Rall vs. pilots of today

[SPEKTRE76]

I was just thinking about this. What if we gave Hartmann, Barkhorn and Rall (young versions) F-35B Lightning II's and them go up against today's pilots in a guns fight. I wonder how the outcome would be.

 

[bobbysocks]

i would still have to give them the edge. they learned a lot of lessons and if they recieved the same training would probably play it smarter than a non-veteran pilot. the big advantages they had in WW2 was the bounce. they were able to sneak up on their enemy...not so easily done with radar. if they could stand with the best of their day and come out on top they would figure out how to do the same today...especially in a guns only fight..

 

[nuuumannn]

I remember many years ago seeing a photo of Gunther Rall sitting in the cockpit of Bf 109G Black 6 at Duxford after it was restored to flying condition and he was being briefed by one of the Messerschmitt's pilots - I can't remember who exactly, possibly Mark or Ray Hanna and there was a caption underneath and it said "Go jump in your Spitfire; we'll have a re-match"!

 

[meatloaf109]

There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold, pilots. These guys survived the meat grinder of air to air combat simply because they were good at what they did and because they were lucky. There is no reason to believe that they would be any less good with modern systems, the luck factor, well...who knows.

 

[SPEKTRE76]

I can't remember who exactly, possibly Mark or Ray Hanna and there was a caption underneath and it said "Go jump in your Spitfire; we'll have a re-match"!

Tears of laughter! AWESOME!

 

[tyrodtom]

I would think a lot would depend on how much time they got in that F35, before they were turned loose.
No matter how good they were there'd be a lot of features, and systems they'd have no knowledge of, they'd have to be trained just like anyone else.

 

[meatloaf109]

The idea is they have training.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Spektre76 please downsize your siggy pic. We have rules on the size of them. If you look at everyone elses siggy, you will see a good size. Nothing bigger please.

 

[GregP]

If they were as trained on the F-35 as they were on Bf / Me 109's, they would prevail unless they got unlucky. They were VERY solid fliers with an intuitive understanding of deflection shooting and aerial combta strategy. This assumes they would get modern training on energy maneuvering as part of the F-35 training.

Those guys were the best in history with guns. What in the world would suddenly change that? Guns are the hardest. If they could use modern missiles, they would be just fine, too. They're EASIER to aim by FAR.

Hartmann was a "close in a kill it" specialist. He shot from close range. All he'd have to do today would be to attain familiarity with the plane, the weapons and systems and he'd be just as sharp as he was. Ditto for the others. They don't suddenly turn stupid or lose their situational awareness just because they get catapulted forward in time.

Plus, they'd have modern GPS and flight directors / HSI. They'd be in Hog Heaven with the avionics today and targeting capabilities afforded by same. And they'd have a LOT more range than in a Bf 109.

 

[bobbysocks]

i agree...they knew flying when flying was more seat of the pants..intuition. the better the machine only makes them better. "progress" has tried to substitute CEI ( computer enhanced intelligence) for RI (real intelligence )...the pilot with more savvy ( who doesnt depend on gimmicks but more on intuition from lessons learned ) will win...if all things are equal.

 

[fastmongrel]

As the F35B is a slow, overweight, short ranged, under armed pig on roller skates with a habit of losing all its electronics at vital times I would take any RAF pilot in a Typhoon or USAAF pilot in an F15 or Russian pilot in a Mig 29 any day of the week.

The F35 programme so far is a gold plated diamond encrusted disaster that should have been cancelled years ago. When a modernised version of a 40 year old design can stomp on it you wonder if its continuing progress is just a way of getting rid of a glut of overtrained pilots.

 

[drgondog]

I suspect that if you cherry picked the best USN, USMC, USAF, IAF, Russian AF, RAF pilots - particularly those that trained at Red Flag or Top Gun and Russian equivalent that the skills are comparable.

If you put the modern day guys with modern day training and popped them Back to 1944 and give them 100 hrs of combat tune up in the a/c of choice - say Spit XIV or P-51D or F4U-4 or Laag - it would be very equal.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What type of aircraft would Hartmann, Barkhorn or Rall be flying? Will this be a BVR fight or a highly unlikely VR old fashion dogfight with guns only that bypassed millions of dollars worth of equipment that could have killed the oponent minutes and miles before this fight began?

 

[GregP]

I see fastmongrel is an enthusiastic F-35 fan ...

However I would point out that the modernized version of the 40-year old design cannot have stomped an F-35 very many times since they are just now working up to service pilot training and have not yet participated in many dissimilar combat exercises. I am not a big F-35 fan but am also not aware of the real flying envelope since it has not been released. I suppose we'll collectively see, won't we? It seems destined to be in several inventories.

 

[Kryten]

seeing as if those guys flew today they would have recieved the same (far more advanced) training modern pilots get, I would not expect them to do any better than todays pilots!

the vast majority of pilots shot down by these guys were rookies or poorly trained, that situation dos'nt exist these days!

 

[vinnye]

I think a fairer test would be to put modern fighter pilots in a Spitfire or BF109 and give them the training of the day and let them loose!
With todays electronics etc it would almost certainly be a BVR fight - decided by who "sees" who first rather than skill.
The thing that would then dictate who wins is skill and who is prepared to push the envelope of their aircraft to get the most out of it.

 

[bobbysocks]

i agree with that. with today's electronic measures...there shouldnt be a "bounce" like in the old days. hartmann scored most of his kills up close and to the point that the debris flying off of the crate he shot down damaged his plane. with the radar of today's planes it would be harder to gain the element of surprise. your enemy would know several minutes in advance that he was going to be engaged and could either turn to meet it or break to evade. plus, how many fighters today have 2 man crew..pilot and weapons man. i believe it would be harder for guys who fly now to go backwards than for those who flew then to advance....

 

[Kryten]

I would think pilot skills these days are far superior to back then, those guys were learning and improvising as they went, these days training is of a much higher standard, you dont see 9 hour rookies flying F16's!

 

[vinnye]

I agree, todays fighter pilots are a lot better trained than those during WW2. In peace time you can practice as long as you like - especially with simulators. You even get G suits and have training to deal with G forces. I dont recall any such training or equipment back then.
During the Battle of France, the RAF lost about 500 aircraft and 250 pilots. These losses were a huge blow to the real strength of the RAF. A lot of these pilots would have been carrer pilots who were in the RAF before the commencement of hostilities and therefore would have been trained and had time in the air, The rookies who replaced them did not have the same amount of time under their belts. There were of course lessons being learned regarding the range to close to to ensure sufficient lead on target, convergence range of guns, and probably most inportant in my opinion changing from a Vic to Finger Four flying formation.
So, I still think put them in the WW2 aircraft where they have to learn their own and their aircrafts limits in double quick time without a computer stopping you from pushing too far.

 

[R Pope]

I recall seeing a pic of Hartman being checked out in an F-104. The young guy doing the check was standing on the ladder with a very self-conscious grin on his face.........