Ill agree there. Polotics and the military are easy for them to attack too because they are allways in the news and everyone has an opinion of it becuase they are always on the front page.
Even the BBC can go wrong. Terribly wrong
- Thread starter Chocks away!
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Well said pD, I agree with what you have said.
Nonskimmer
Captain
Excellent post, D. Well said.
schwarzpanzer
Senior Airman
- 662
- Aug 8, 2005
Couldn't agree more there, tell that to that 82 year old who was thrown out of a Government conference by 'volunteers' (paid bouncers, some with criminl records) for daring to say "nonsense".
Germany didn't start it, that was France and Poland
When Britain finally wanted to attack Germany for attacking Poland, who sweeps into Poland from the East?
It knew if it started with Stalin, it would get a good kicking, much better to attack an enemy with "cardboard tanks" wouldn't you agree?
Now there my respect is great, the Conquistadores would have done to us what they did to the Aztecs otherwise.
I've used that reason to defend Britain before!
The Boer war was dodgy, using slaves to end slavery.
I deliberately tried to get a rise. If Germans are evil, so are the Brits, it's a common fact. See another perspective that's all.
I know full well that the people who suffered the most were the Brits themselves; diseased, worked to death, cannon fodder, much worse than any foreigner.
I hope you see my point now?
wmaxt said:
The Government is nigh-on Totalitarian in Britain and is perfectly capable of defending itself
It also has a crazy view on 'Democracy' i.e. the majority vote in the last election was for the Tories, Labour won.
There is a Scottish Parliament and a Welsh one but no English one!
The Iraq protest is another example.
Can you believe I used to be a patriot?
No, Germany started it. Germany attacked Poland at 0445, 1st September 1939. Poland was on the defensive. I have no idea where you get the idea France started it. France needed to be pressured by Great Britain to even declare war on Germany.
Britain wanted to aid Finland against the Soviet Union, knowing full well it risked war with both Germany and the Soviet Union at once. That was one of the reasons for the invasion of Norway. Germany was expansionist, they were not defending themselves in the majority of cases. How was attacking Norway self-defence?
If Germany was solely after claiming the land back robbed from them in the Treaty of Versailles, they would have assaulted Poland then demanded they had back the land that Poland held from Germany. Instead, Germany drew their line at the Vistula. The invasion of France and attack on Britain were nothing evil, both nations had declared war on Germany. The military actions are not what make people think Germany was evil ...but they did start the war.
No, you see the real perspective. The British Empire and those centuries beforehand were products of the time. The years of World War II were an advancement from the times of global empire and slavery. Yet Germany aimed for slavery, it aimed for an empire, it aimed for racial extermination. If Britain was evil for wanting to stop Germany's expansion then so be it.
I know exactly what happened in Britain pre and post-war. That is what makes me even more proud of the British people in those years. We stood up to everything that was thrown against use. No one can ever say the actions of our government were right but we stood up for what we believed was right, democracy and freedom. We defeated the aggressors, Germany.
Whether or not you believe Germany was in the right or wrong to act the way it did, it does not change the simple fact that Germany threw the first punch ...no one else.
And what Britain is now has nothing to do with what those lads fought for 60-70 years ago.
Britain wanted to aid Finland against the Soviet Union, knowing full well it risked war with both Germany and the Soviet Union at once. That was one of the reasons for the invasion of Norway. Germany was expansionist, they were not defending themselves in the majority of cases. How was attacking Norway self-defence?
If Germany was solely after claiming the land back robbed from them in the Treaty of Versailles, they would have assaulted Poland then demanded they had back the land that Poland held from Germany. Instead, Germany drew their line at the Vistula. The invasion of France and attack on Britain were nothing evil, both nations had declared war on Germany. The military actions are not what make people think Germany was evil ...but they did start the war.
No, you see the real perspective. The British Empire and those centuries beforehand were products of the time. The years of World War II were an advancement from the times of global empire and slavery. Yet Germany aimed for slavery, it aimed for an empire, it aimed for racial extermination. If Britain was evil for wanting to stop Germany's expansion then so be it.
I know exactly what happened in Britain pre and post-war. That is what makes me even more proud of the British people in those years. We stood up to everything that was thrown against use. No one can ever say the actions of our government were right but we stood up for what we believed was right, democracy and freedom. We defeated the aggressors, Germany.
Whether or not you believe Germany was in the right or wrong to act the way it did, it does not change the simple fact that Germany threw the first punch ...no one else.
And what Britain is now has nothing to do with what those lads fought for 60-70 years ago.
schwarzpanzer
Senior Airman
- 662
- Aug 8, 2005
Versailles treaty.
Yes, it went too far.
Far too far.
I don't see why people should sit back now, if they do, then those men fought for nothing.
The Versailles Treaty or 'Versailles Diktat' as the Germans refered to it was a brutally harsh document. It wasn't entirely France's doing, both Great Britain and the United States signed that treaty.
However, just because Versailles was over the top (which I know it was), it doesn't change the simple fact that Germany did start World War II. It's reasons for doing so are mostly understandable, I know. The vast majority of the German people wished all the land stolen from them, back and that was it. But Hitler wanted an Atlantic to Ural Empire ...and he was encouraged by the German people ...so, they began the fight ...the Allies ended the fight.
People sit back now because they're cowards and they're brainwashed. Do you honestly think those lads would have fought for Britain if they had known Britain would become ...this. Of course they wouldn't. But they did fight for the Britain that existed 60 years ago ...and they were right to do so!
It is unfortunate that the Soviet Union wasn't attacked afterwards. To be honest, I would have sided with Germany in 1943 against the Soviet Union. Then encouraged the German people to oust Adolf Hitler, which they would have been all to happy to do by then.
However, just because Versailles was over the top (which I know it was), it doesn't change the simple fact that Germany did start World War II. It's reasons for doing so are mostly understandable, I know. The vast majority of the German people wished all the land stolen from them, back and that was it. But Hitler wanted an Atlantic to Ural Empire ...and he was encouraged by the German people ...so, they began the fight ...the Allies ended the fight.
People sit back now because they're cowards and they're brainwashed. Do you honestly think those lads would have fought for Britain if they had known Britain would become ...this. Of course they wouldn't. But they did fight for the Britain that existed 60 years ago ...and they were right to do so!
It is unfortunate that the Soviet Union wasn't attacked afterwards. To be honest, I would have sided with Germany in 1943 against the Soviet Union. Then encouraged the German people to oust Adolf Hitler, which they would have been all to happy to do by then.
One of the great things of permanently living abroad is you discover amazing things.
An interesting fact I had to the chance to discover while living here:
Although Mexico declared a state of war against the Axis nations, and a Mexican P-47 fitted squadron served in the PTO against the Japs, there was a high number of mexican citizens apparently wishing Germany to win the war crushing the "communist bastards" of the USSR for good, "erasing them and their funny ideas out of the planet".
The grandfather of a friend of mine here, now in his late 80s, told me they were having huge celebrations when the news told the Wehrmacht was at the gates of Moscow. Same thing happened whenever German victories were announced.
In a diametrically opposed scenario, a sad ambience flooded the place when news of German defeats arrived.
The news of the U-boat sinkings in the Atlantic, for instance, lead to long nights plentiful with beer or wine and food.
He clearly recalls his friends exploding in a noisy "Hurra!!!!!!!!" the evening when the news broadcasted Bismark finished HMS Hood in a mere few minutes and mauled HMS Prince of Wales. Of course, they nearly cried when they heard the Bismark was herself sunk a few days later.
Incredible eh?
I was told Mexico has had a significant number of Germans, Japanese and Italians living in the country ever since. The federal government of this place created "internment camps" for Germans, Italians and Japanese, since they were -of course- declared enemies of Mexico.
This gentlemen told me they did not care much about the Japanese, but the Germans were certainly dear people down here.
While in fact, dozens of thousands of Germans were interned in such camps during WW2, there were many others which avoided such fate, aided by mexican families.
He told me of an incredible case of a mexican woman, married to a German diesel engine specialist, who presented herself at the gates of the camp, insulted the authority in charge, entered the place, grabbed her husband and returned home to carry on with their daily lives and were never ever bothered (!)
(I do not know if that is the most convenient kind of wife to have)
Other than a very significant aid providing raw materials -namely oil- to the allied side, "minor" allied nations such as Mexico played a marginal role in the war; I assume we are aware of this.
However, it is interesting to know, people here in Mexico City would stick to their radios to hear the oncoming news of the war every evening.
He told me he and many many others were absolutely furious when the German final surrender was broadcasted.
"Mueran bolcheviques bastardos"..."you Bolshevik bastards die" apparently made a common sight in some places of this capital city during that part of the XX century.
An interesting fact I had to the chance to discover while living here:
Although Mexico declared a state of war against the Axis nations, and a Mexican P-47 fitted squadron served in the PTO against the Japs, there was a high number of mexican citizens apparently wishing Germany to win the war crushing the "communist bastards" of the USSR for good, "erasing them and their funny ideas out of the planet".
The grandfather of a friend of mine here, now in his late 80s, told me they were having huge celebrations when the news told the Wehrmacht was at the gates of Moscow. Same thing happened whenever German victories were announced.
In a diametrically opposed scenario, a sad ambience flooded the place when news of German defeats arrived.
The news of the U-boat sinkings in the Atlantic, for instance, lead to long nights plentiful with beer or wine and food.
He clearly recalls his friends exploding in a noisy "Hurra!!!!!!!!" the evening when the news broadcasted Bismark finished HMS Hood in a mere few minutes and mauled HMS Prince of Wales. Of course, they nearly cried when they heard the Bismark was herself sunk a few days later.
Incredible eh?
I was told Mexico has had a significant number of Germans, Japanese and Italians living in the country ever since. The federal government of this place created "internment camps" for Germans, Italians and Japanese, since they were -of course- declared enemies of Mexico.
This gentlemen told me they did not care much about the Japanese, but the Germans were certainly dear people down here.
While in fact, dozens of thousands of Germans were interned in such camps during WW2, there were many others which avoided such fate, aided by mexican families.
He told me of an incredible case of a mexican woman, married to a German diesel engine specialist, who presented herself at the gates of the camp, insulted the authority in charge, entered the place, grabbed her husband and returned home to carry on with their daily lives and were never ever bothered (!)
(I do not know if that is the most convenient kind of wife to have)
Other than a very significant aid providing raw materials -namely oil- to the allied side, "minor" allied nations such as Mexico played a marginal role in the war; I assume we are aware of this.
However, it is interesting to know, people here in Mexico City would stick to their radios to hear the oncoming news of the war every evening.
He told me he and many many others were absolutely furious when the German final surrender was broadcasted.
"Mueran bolcheviques bastardos"..."you Bolshevik bastards die" apparently made a common sight in some places of this capital city during that part of the XX century.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Interesting Udet - My dad was raised in Venezuela, the feeling was similar..
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
My parents went to live in Caracas in the early 50s. My mom saw a man gunned down in a market place by local police, according to them he was a Nazi. A few years later things really changed!
schwarzpanzer
Senior Airman
- 662
- Aug 8, 2005
The French higher-ups were arsey about losing the Franco-Prussian war and saw a chance to humilite Germany. That was a bad move, you don't treat a powerful country like that, unless in your words you know you can win.
As I see it; WW1's ending started WW2, Serbs started WW1.
Yes and France taught a lesson, Serbia invaded.
That's right.
Interesting concept PlanD. 8)
I think a lot of nations were confused, wasn't Argentina in bed with the USA? Also don't forget 'the great debate' was nearly 50/50.
As I see it; WW1's ending started WW2, Serbs started WW1.
Yes and France taught a lesson, Serbia invaded.
That's right.
Interesting concept PlanD. 8)
I think a lot of nations were confused, wasn't Argentina in bed with the USA? Also don't forget 'the great debate' was nearly 50/50.
The ending of WW1 and the Versaille treaty all contributed to the causes for Germany starting WW2, Germany however still started WW2. You can not argue that fact.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
Udet normally seems to find a way of doing so 
As others do. Others also seem to argue facts that are not German related either in Udets defense though.
schwarzpanzer
Senior Airman
- 662
- Aug 8, 2005
I still feel that, in some ways, Germany was merely defending herself. Even Churchill said something like that.
It caused quite the stir in South America when Brazil joined the Alliance for the economic benefits the U.S had granted them. Argentina being a long time friend of Germany, and being a fascist state itself wasn't too happy to have a pro-Allied country on it's doorstep.
The politics of South America during the war are often over-looked. They were, however, extremely complex with the variety of nations being quite remarkable ...all of which are mingled in with one another in an extremely varied landscape.
There's a nice fictional scenario in Hearts of Iron II called the "Platinean War" which involves the political climate of South America and ultimately rotates around Brazil and Argentina backed by the Allies and Axis respectively.
The politics of South America during the war are often over-looked. They were, however, extremely complex with the variety of nations being quite remarkable ...all of which are mingled in with one another in an extremely varied landscape.
There's a nice fictional scenario in Hearts of Iron II called the "Platinean War" which involves the political climate of South America and ultimately rotates around Brazil and Argentina backed by the Allies and Axis respectively.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
it's interesting to think though that south america is one of the least advanced nations, and they're never really been affected by a mojor recent conflict, maybe they're linked?
South America isn't a nation, it's a continent. And they have been involved in recent conflicts just not largely because the nations of central and South America are either bankrupt or are lacking military power to conduct operations outside their own boundaries.
From the early 30s to now several South American countries have been involved in minor or major wars.
From the early 30s to now several South American countries have been involved in minor or major wars.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
schwarzpanzer said:
Who would Germany be defending herself against?
Not Poland. With a 45 division army, antiquidated aircraft and a small armour corps it wasn't a threat.
Not the USSR. The 1939 Ribbentrov-Molotov pact saw to that.
Not France. France was too mindful of the last war. The French though defensively about the Germans, otherwise they wouldn't of sat behind the Maginot line waiting for the German army to attack.
Not the UK. Chamberlain was too concerned with "peace in our time" to want to act agressively towards Germany.
The Versailles treaty, war reparations, the 'stab in the back' myth, hyper inflation, the immiseration of the German middle class. All these didn't lead to WW2. Instead, what they did was bring down Weimar Germany and the proportional representative democracy and replace it with Totalitarian National Socialism, dictatorship, militarism and national delusion. If Germany had stayed a democracy, do you think WW2 really would of started?
WW1 and its after effects wasn't the reason why WW2 started, it was the reason why German democracy failed. It was what made war possible, not what made it occur. When democracy failed then the path to war was available, but it wasn't created by Versailles, it was created by Hitler siezing on German bitterness and aspirations and using them for his own advantage.
Hitler was a maniac, obsessed with idealised notions of Germanic crusaders, the racial purity of Germanic people and the clash of social systems. "Lebenstraum" was his battle cry. It was nothing more than an ideological veneer over a simmering pot of racial hatred and lust for territory.
