F-22 and F-35 outperformed by 4th gen fighters?

Discussion in 'Modern' started by ONE_HELLCAT, May 29, 2009.

  1. ONE_HELLCAT

    ONE_HELLCAT Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Ventura County
    So my friend sends me this video that talks about, in short, how bad the F-35 is in close quarters combat and how superior 4th gen Russian fighters are. The user in youtube is PowerRussia, so there's obviously a bias.

    I'm wondering, what's your take on this?

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N0iXFN37iU

    Personally, to say the F-35 is a terrible close quarters fighter makes sense. It seems kinda heavy in the VTOL configuration, and it does have smaller wings and lacks thrust vectoring.
     
  2. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Video and multi-media communications expert
    Location:
    FL
    "close quarters"

    doesnt mean what it used too.
     
  3. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,160
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Consellor
    Location:
    Lincolnshire
    Does this fall into the same area as the Chinese claiming to have shot down an F22?
     
  4. ONE_HELLCAT

    ONE_HELLCAT Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Ventura County
    I guess so, though I've honestly missed that story
     
  5. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    561
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Executive, Consulting
    Location:
    Scurry, Texas
    Until the 'adversary' force deploys stealth technology and/or defeats it - they can't kill what they can't see. Missle technology combined by radar capabilities sez that F-35 and F-22 have a distinct advantage well before the merge.

    the capability of a 22/35 hitting his adversary 50-100 miles away at night (or day) while remaining unseen for example, makes it tough to contemplate why any 4th Gen Russian Fighter has an advantage.
     
  6. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,195
    Likes Received:
    778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    As I said many times, I remember during the late 70s early 80s hearing people saying the same thing when the F-15 and F-16 came on scene.
     
  7. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,064
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    #7 vikingBerserker, May 29, 2009
    Last edited: May 29, 2009
    I agree with Drgondog on this one.

    I watched a pretty cool show on TV about modern combat (Dogfights?), and it talked about using a B-1 as a missle carrier whose missles would be controlled by the F-22. Pretty sweet.
     
  8. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Engineer and overgrown schoolboy
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm not really up on the modern stuff
    but that's pretty much what I was thinking
     
  9. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    #9 Matt308, May 29, 2009
    Last edited: May 29, 2009
    It is well known that the F-35 is NOT an air superiority fighter. That was the F-22's job. But then again, it was not designed for that role. The F-35 is not a match for many existing airframes in a knife fight from a kinematic perspective.

    But ability of the F-35 to avoid entering 'the merge' is exactly what it WAS designed for. F-35 has all aspect stealth, unlike F/A-18E/F or F-15 Silent Eagle. And it also has netcentric capability to exchange battlefield information with diverse assets that increase by magnitudes is effectiveness. Modern air-battles are not necessarily decided by single platform detection, targeting and destruction of enemy assets. USAF is still learning the capabilities of stealth, but to date they are NOT the missile platforms. Rather they are force multipliers that allow early detection and targeting that is passed on to existing weapons platforms, allowing them to remain stealthy. It is easy to remain in battle-think that a single platform is limited by the missiles that it can carry. This is foolish in modern planning. If used in an ideal sense, the F-35 or F-22 would never fire a shot.

    This has been proven for the most part in exercises that are public domain. F-22s control the battlespace similar to AWACS. Link16/22 and newer waveforms allow for dynamic information display between targeters and shooters. F-15s/F-16s make the kills.

    Thus, when you read about one-on-one engagements, they must assume that battlespace planning has utterly collapsed.
     
  10. ONE_HELLCAT

    ONE_HELLCAT Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Ventura County
    This is pretty much what I thought, but now I'm wondering, if they did get into visual range of each other, how would the F-35 perform?
     
  11. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Against what? What weapons? What scenario?

    And you realize that your question will only result in suppositions, right? ;)
     
  12. ONE_HELLCAT

    ONE_HELLCAT Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Ventura County
    Well I meant in the scenario in the video. I know no one here would know for fact he outcome, but I'm still interested in it because the lot of you know aviation better than I do.
     
  13. Raptorman

    Raptorman New Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Treasure coast of FL
    Ok, let us take an "incident" into consideration. 2 F-22 vs 6 SU 35's. The F-22's have the 35's on their screens before the 35's can even see the 22's. The 22 pilots tells his computer to target the 35's. The lead 22 does this. It tells the second 22 which 35's it has targeted to that the second 22 targets different aircraft. So now we have 2 22's targeting 6 35's from 50 miles away and so far the 35 can't see the 22's. If/when the 22's fire, the 35's will have a moment to pick them up on radar. The chances are the 35's will pick up the missiles flying at them before they pick up the 22's. Since each 35 has a missile dedicated to it the 22's have only fired 6 missiles. By the time there are even in visual range the 35's will be trying to evade the missiles fired at them. But let them think they can do it, maybe it will slow down the development of new aircraft.
     
  14. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,160
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Consellor
    Location:
    Lincolnshire
    6 dead SU35's
     
  15. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Now do the same with one F-22 and 2-F-15s v 6-Su-35s. F-15s are outside of IR detection and are emitting no electromagnetic radiation (i.e. radar/comm). F-22 slides in first and detects -35s, while not being seen. Target information datalinked to f-15s for BVR engagement. Target updates to missiles made F-22 still undetected and F-15s BVR.

    F-22 has engaged 6 Su-35s and not fired a shot.

    Now what about F-22 AESA capability for not only detection, but spoofing and directed energy attacks. Things get real interesting then.
     
  16. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    There has been a considerable amount of air combat over the past 30 years involving F-14s, F-15s, F-16s and F-18s. The American made fighter aircraft kicked butt every time. I suspect that American made F-22s and F-35s are better still. :|
     
  17. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    It's what can't be written that makes for real intrigue. Wish I knew it all.
     
  18. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    36,714
    Likes Received:
    1,053
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Nightshift picker
    Location:
    A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland
    Home Page:
    This is all about what if they met non stealth fighters.....what will happen when they meet a fighter that ARE stealth like themself, HOW do they perform then.....stealth isn't exactly something that you have monopoly on.
    Are they as good as they say playing at level with another stealth fighter? The day will come when everybody or most, will have stealth fighters which will make IR and radar missiles useless.....and we're back to bullets and the old blues.
     
  19. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Lucky that's like asking to compare airplanes that fly fast. What is meant by "stealth"? Right now, we can use your same terms in comparing the 5th generation F-22/-35 with say... a US F-18E/F (I say US because many of the FCS technology is not sold to foreign countries). Both airframes are technically "stealthy", but the F-18E/F is no match for the F-22. So what "stealthy" airplanes are you referring to? Or were you just posing a hypothetical?
     
  20. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    36,714
    Likes Received:
    1,053
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Nightshift picker
    Location:
    A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland
    Home Page:
    Just a hypothetical one mate....:D
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. Lucky13
    Replies:
    35
    Views:
    2,706
  2. comiso90
    Replies:
    26
    Views:
    3,125
  3. nimrod.michaeli
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    1,187
  4. v2
    Replies:
    8
    Views:
    1,878
  5. FLYBOYJ
    Replies:
    14
    Views:
    2,506

Share This Page