F4U Corsair vs P-51 Mustang
- Thread starter Catch22
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
This was an excellent thread to read. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts by drgondog, renrich and davparir about there fathers. Thank you for sharing gentleman. There was some great input by many. Syscom3 and Soundbreaker Welch? had some good post. drgondog pretty much summed it up with "-these were two great airplanes that saved a lot of American lives." I could only add by saying these planes saved a lot of lives of all nationalities by helping to end the war earlier.
I was pretty content with just reading the thread and leaving it at that.........until someone said, " I gets mine too. It's faster and same weapons and it's prettier." There are some very good looking fighters that came out of WW2. I personally find it hard to call any of them pretty. Think of why they had to be built. Well, anyway I got to thinking. WHEN?...What dates of the war are we discussing?
The final answer that they were both needed and did there job well doesn't change. But HOW they compaired as the war progress did.
I got real curious and I started digging for information. First on the sceen is the NA-73 Mustang I operational in the RAF (A.C.C.) service on May 10, 1942. Then came the P-51 Mustang Ia entering RAF service in August of 1942. So the Mustang was uncontended until January 14, 1943 (according to my sorces) when the F4U-1 became operational with the USMC.
The following information comes from military testing of P-51 No. 41-37320 6/16/42 and (F4U-1 No. 02155 10/31/44).
Match up No.1: P-51 Mustang Mk.Ia and (F4U-1 Corsair)
Altitude...Speed/Climb
Meters....mph/fpm
S.L.......359/2300 (348/3160)
1,000...367/2485 (347/2660)
2,000...375/2650 (345/2490)
3,000...383/2650 (358/2455)
4,000...389/2315 (370/2410)
5,000...385/1445 (384/2215)
6,000...381/1145 (386/1825)
7,000...373/ 840 (395/1635)
8,000...360/ 530 (387/1290)
9,000...329/ 250 (371/ 985)
Maximums: 389 mph./13,120 ft. and 2,780 fpm./7,000 ft. later in a report dated 9/16/43 same plane hit 395 mph./`13,000 ft. using 46.6" Hg. boost. (395 mph./22,800 ft. and 3,160 fpm./S.L.)
Ceilings
Combat (1,000 fpm): 21,490 (29,350) ft.
Operational (500 fpm): 26,275 (34,375) ft.
Service ( 100 fpm): 31,300 (38,500) ft.
Engine: Allison V-1710-39, 1,220 hp./47.2"Hg. ( Pratt Whitney R-2800-8, 2,000 hp./54"Hg.)
Test Weight: 8,824 (11,194) lbs.
Power Loading: 7.233- (5.597) lbs./hp.
Wing Loading: 37.87+ (35.65-) lbs./sq.ft.
Armament: 4 x 20mm/125 rpg. (6 x 0.50in./400 rpg.)
Roll Rate for XP-51 according to NACA graph: 56 deg./sec. @ 200 mph. and 86 deg./sec. @ 400 mph.
Roll Rate according to USN report: (76 deg. left and 84 deg. right at 200 mph.)
Note: In a letter from Allison Division of GM to the Commanding General of the USAAF Material Center the allowable boost of the V-1710-39 is 60"Hg. on 12/12/42. The letter states that 66"Hg was being used in Australia and 70"Hg was being used in the Middle East. In another letter dated August 26, 1943 from Brigadier General Charles F. Born is the statement that the British have been boosting their V-1710-F3R (-39) engines to 72"Hg for as much as 20 minutes at a time without hurting the engine. 70"Hg would be about 1,780 hp. at S.L. That would give the above P-51 a power loading of 4.957+lbs./hp.
I came to the conclusion that there were at least five match ups of the P-51 and F4U. I have just started Match up No.2: P-51A and F4U-1a that would have happened in September 1943.
Jeff
I was pretty content with just reading the thread and leaving it at that.........until someone said, " I gets mine too. It's faster and same weapons and it's prettier." There are some very good looking fighters that came out of WW2. I personally find it hard to call any of them pretty. Think of why they had to be built. Well, anyway I got to thinking. WHEN?...What dates of the war are we discussing?
The final answer that they were both needed and did there job well doesn't change. But HOW they compaired as the war progress did.
I got real curious and I started digging for information. First on the sceen is the NA-73 Mustang I operational in the RAF (A.C.C.) service on May 10, 1942. Then came the P-51 Mustang Ia entering RAF service in August of 1942. So the Mustang was uncontended until January 14, 1943 (according to my sorces) when the F4U-1 became operational with the USMC.
The following information comes from military testing of P-51 No. 41-37320 6/16/42 and (F4U-1 No. 02155 10/31/44).
Match up No.1: P-51 Mustang Mk.Ia and (F4U-1 Corsair)
Altitude...Speed/Climb
Meters....mph/fpm
S.L.......359/2300 (348/3160)
1,000...367/2485 (347/2660)
2,000...375/2650 (345/2490)
3,000...383/2650 (358/2455)
4,000...389/2315 (370/2410)
5,000...385/1445 (384/2215)
6,000...381/1145 (386/1825)
7,000...373/ 840 (395/1635)
8,000...360/ 530 (387/1290)
9,000...329/ 250 (371/ 985)
Maximums: 389 mph./13,120 ft. and 2,780 fpm./7,000 ft. later in a report dated 9/16/43 same plane hit 395 mph./`13,000 ft. using 46.6" Hg. boost. (395 mph./22,800 ft. and 3,160 fpm./S.L.)
Ceilings
Combat (1,000 fpm): 21,490 (29,350) ft.
Operational (500 fpm): 26,275 (34,375) ft.
Service ( 100 fpm): 31,300 (38,500) ft.
Engine: Allison V-1710-39, 1,220 hp./47.2"Hg. ( Pratt Whitney R-2800-8, 2,000 hp./54"Hg.)
Test Weight: 8,824 (11,194) lbs.
Power Loading: 7.233- (5.597) lbs./hp.
Wing Loading: 37.87+ (35.65-) lbs./sq.ft.
Armament: 4 x 20mm/125 rpg. (6 x 0.50in./400 rpg.)
Roll Rate for XP-51 according to NACA graph: 56 deg./sec. @ 200 mph. and 86 deg./sec. @ 400 mph.
Roll Rate according to USN report: (76 deg. left and 84 deg. right at 200 mph.)
Note: In a letter from Allison Division of GM to the Commanding General of the USAAF Material Center the allowable boost of the V-1710-39 is 60"Hg. on 12/12/42. The letter states that 66"Hg was being used in Australia and 70"Hg was being used in the Middle East. In another letter dated August 26, 1943 from Brigadier General Charles F. Born is the statement that the British have been boosting their V-1710-F3R (-39) engines to 72"Hg for as much as 20 minutes at a time without hurting the engine. 70"Hg would be about 1,780 hp. at S.L. That would give the above P-51 a power loading of 4.957+lbs./hp.
I came to the conclusion that there were at least five match ups of the P-51 and F4U. I have just started Match up No.2: P-51A and F4U-1a that would have happened in September 1943.
Jeff
Last edited:
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Tomo, it was good to see that you were here also.
I actually saw your post questioning the speeds and started tinkering with the idea of the matchups at their prospective times of introduction into operational service. But then I figured I better know what I am doing before I open my mouth with this crowd present. So before I made my first post I read the following threads on this forum: P-51 Mustang or F4U Corsair started by eimilitaro on 4/5/06, F4U vs. P-51 essay started by magnocain on 2/26/08, F4U Corsair vs. P-51 Mustang...IN KOREA started by Clay Allison on 1/11/10, F4U-4 vs P-51D started by jedi391 on 3/1/10 and of course I read this thread first.
There is some very good reading in most of them, on and off topic.
My curiosity has the best of me now so tonight when I get home I will put together the P-51A and F4U-1a (with water injection) September 1943 matchup. The only item I am not clear on is WHEN (date) the USMC and USN started using water injection in their fighter aircraft. I am pretty sure it was in 1944 but I just don't know approximately when...???
Jeff
I actually saw your post questioning the speeds and started tinkering with the idea of the matchups at their prospective times of introduction into operational service. But then I figured I better know what I am doing before I open my mouth with this crowd present. So before I made my first post I read the following threads on this forum: P-51 Mustang or F4U Corsair started by eimilitaro on 4/5/06, F4U vs. P-51 essay started by magnocain on 2/26/08, F4U Corsair vs. P-51 Mustang...IN KOREA started by Clay Allison on 1/11/10, F4U-4 vs P-51D started by jedi391 on 3/1/10 and of course I read this thread first.
There is some very good reading in most of them, on and off topic.
My curiosity has the best of me now so tonight when I get home I will put together the P-51A and F4U-1a (with water injection) September 1943 matchup. The only item I am not clear on is WHEN (date) the USMC and USN started using water injection in their fighter aircraft. I am pretty sure it was in 1944 but I just don't know approximately when...???
Jeff
Last edited:
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
I tried to put in Matchup No.2 guys but it wouldn't post it. The sight said I wasn't logged in after I punched "Go Advanced" and then typed for about 30 minutes. When I logged back in the sight would not bring me back to the post I had just written...??? I hit back until the post came back up but it would not let me SUBMIT REPLY or VIEW POST. I will try again tomorrow if I get time.
Any help is appreciated, Jeff.
Any help is appreciated, Jeff.
drgondog
Major
Jeff- he comparisons get tricky unless you focus on 'release date'/First Production Date?
Mar 43- P-51A F4U-1-Oct 42
May 43-P-51B F4U-1A,C - Aug 43
Mar 44-P-51D F4U-1D-April 44
Feb 45-P-51H F4U-4 Feb 45
(source: America's 100K)
Also the Engine variants are important. The P-51A had the 1710-81 to replace the -39 giving it 180 extra HP in MP a 57", but the USAAF an AF were boosting the engines to as much as 70" with no ill effects
The Packard Merlin 1650-3 'high altitude variant' had a FTH of 29,000 feet and was a better performer than the later 1650-7 above 24000 feet but the 1650-7 had better performance in the middle altitudes to 24K.
Thus comparisons for speed and climb have to be framed with altitude and boost always (as you know)..
Mar 43- P-51A F4U-1-Oct 42
May 43-P-51B F4U-1A,C - Aug 43
Mar 44-P-51D F4U-1D-April 44
Feb 45-P-51H F4U-4 Feb 45
(source: America's 100K)
Also the Engine variants are important. The P-51A had the 1710-81 to replace the -39 giving it 180 extra HP in MP a 57", but the USAAF an AF were boosting the engines to as much as 70" with no ill effects
The Packard Merlin 1650-3 'high altitude variant' had a FTH of 29,000 feet and was a better performer than the later 1650-7 above 24000 feet but the 1650-7 had better performance in the middle altitudes to 24K.
Thus comparisons for speed and climb have to be framed with altitude and boost always (as you know)..
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
drgondog,
I agree sir. However, I thought it to be more appropriate to use their operational debut. That shows more of how they compared on battle field "officially". Unfortunately, the performance at how far all fighter aircraft were boosted in combat is not very often documented. So test trials are all we have to go by.
I try to be as specific as possible without getting too lengthy in order to give a quick comparison that doesn't get too cluttered. I would definitely have to go into much, much greater detail if I were to write a book. I will absolutely agree with that.
I agree sir. However, I thought it to be more appropriate to use their operational debut. That shows more of how they compared on battle field "officially". Unfortunately, the performance at how far all fighter aircraft were boosted in combat is not very often documented. So test trials are all we have to go by.
I try to be as specific as possible without getting too lengthy in order to give a quick comparison that doesn't get too cluttered. I would definitely have to go into much, much greater detail if I were to write a book. I will absolutely agree with that.
Last edited:
The entry in the 'America's hundred thousand' says this:
Jan '44: About 60% of F6F-3 Hellcats are now powered by water-injected P&W R-2800-10W engine.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Thank you so much for that tomo. I have owned Dean's AHT for about a year now (?) and have not had time to read it cover to cover yet. It is an excellent book filled with a lot of information.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
drgondog and tomo,
Thank you both for your help. I'll post these matchups as long as the interest is there. And, I welcome all corrections if I make a mistake. That is the only way to learn. OK then...
According to my sources, the P-51A first entered operational service with the 14th Air Force in China in September 1943. The F4U-1a entered operational service on August 9, 1943.
Matchup No.2: P-51A, 43-6007 report dated 4/2/43 and (F4U-1a, Actually the F4U-1 in Matchup No.1. I could not locate a complete or accurate test of the F4U-1a using 54"Hg boost and 2,000 hp. but the results should be fairly close.)
Altitude..Speed/Climb
Meters...mph/fpm
S.L.....376/3500 (348/3160)
1,000..387/3625 (347/2660)
2,000..400/3750 (345/2490)
3,000..412/3405 (358/2455)
4,000..412/2925 (370/2410)
5,000..410/2455 (384/2215)
6,000..405/2025 (386/1825)
7,000..399/1605 (395/1635)
8,000..389/1160 (387/1290)
9,000..367/ 765 (371/ 985)
Maximums: 415 mph./10,400 ft.and 3,785 fpm./7,575 ft. (395 mph./22,800 ft. and 3,160 fpm./S.L.)
Note: Boscombe Down Mk.II (P-51A) F.R.893 results in Report dated 4/3/44: 409 mph./10,000 ft. and 3,900 fpm./2,000 ft. using the V-1710-F20R (-81) / 57"Hg boost at a test weight of 8,200-8,300 lbs.
Ceilings
Combat: 27,650 (29,350) ft.
Operational: 31,675 (34,375) ft.
Service: 35,100 (38,500) ft.
Engine: Alison V-1710-81, 1,480 hp.@ 56.8"Hg boost (Pratt Whitney R-2800-8, 2,000 hp.) Maximum output.
Wing Loading: 34.33+(35.65-) lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.405+(5.597) lbs./hp.
Test Weight: 8,000 (11,194) lbs.
Armament: 2 x 0.5in./350 rpg. + 2 x 0.5in./280 rpg. (6 x 0.5in./400 rpg.)
Thank you both for your help. I'll post these matchups as long as the interest is there. And, I welcome all corrections if I make a mistake. That is the only way to learn. OK then...
According to my sources, the P-51A first entered operational service with the 14th Air Force in China in September 1943. The F4U-1a entered operational service on August 9, 1943.
Matchup No.2: P-51A, 43-6007 report dated 4/2/43 and (F4U-1a, Actually the F4U-1 in Matchup No.1. I could not locate a complete or accurate test of the F4U-1a using 54"Hg boost and 2,000 hp. but the results should be fairly close.)
Altitude..Speed/Climb
Meters...mph/fpm
S.L.....376/3500 (348/3160)
1,000..387/3625 (347/2660)
2,000..400/3750 (345/2490)
3,000..412/3405 (358/2455)
4,000..412/2925 (370/2410)
5,000..410/2455 (384/2215)
6,000..405/2025 (386/1825)
7,000..399/1605 (395/1635)
8,000..389/1160 (387/1290)
9,000..367/ 765 (371/ 985)
Maximums: 415 mph./10,400 ft.and 3,785 fpm./7,575 ft. (395 mph./22,800 ft. and 3,160 fpm./S.L.)
Note: Boscombe Down Mk.II (P-51A) F.R.893 results in Report dated 4/3/44: 409 mph./10,000 ft. and 3,900 fpm./2,000 ft. using the V-1710-F20R (-81) / 57"Hg boost at a test weight of 8,200-8,300 lbs.
Ceilings
Combat: 27,650 (29,350) ft.
Operational: 31,675 (34,375) ft.
Service: 35,100 (38,500) ft.
Engine: Alison V-1710-81, 1,480 hp.@ 56.8"Hg boost (Pratt Whitney R-2800-8, 2,000 hp.) Maximum output.
Wing Loading: 34.33+(35.65-) lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.405+(5.597) lbs./hp.
Test Weight: 8,000 (11,194) lbs.
Armament: 2 x 0.5in./350 rpg. + 2 x 0.5in./280 rpg. (6 x 0.5in./400 rpg.)
Last edited:
Jeff, once the F4Us have water injection aboard, the P-51B is also flying in combat. Also, please note that the F4U-1, Bu.No.17930, has a removed hook, prop that is of different design than what were run-on-the-mill Corsairs equipped with, and sealed ejection chutes (unlike P-51A). Still a very capable bird, but those details, along with use of water injection, earn the Corsair some 30 mph at ~20000 ft.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
I agree tomo. I considered these factors:
1. I am not positive when the first F4U-1a with water injection entered combat.
2. The non water injectioned F4U-1a would have been very, very close to the F4U-1 which I have already posted.
3. I used results of early testing of the Corsair with water injection.
4. The P-51B entered operational service on December 1, 1943 about three months after the A model. So I used a later testing of the F4U-1a with water injection for that matchup. ( and yes I know an F6F-3 propeller was used on the Corsair in that test but it is what I have to work with). My question would then be: did the same prop get used on the Corsair in combat?
1. I am not positive when the first F4U-1a with water injection entered combat.
2. The non water injectioned F4U-1a would have been very, very close to the F4U-1 which I have already posted.
3. I used results of early testing of the Corsair with water injection.
4. The P-51B entered operational service on December 1, 1943 about three months after the A model. So I used a later testing of the F4U-1a with water injection for that matchup. ( and yes I know an F6F-3 propeller was used on the Corsair in that test but it is what I have to work with). My question would then be: did the same prop get used on the Corsair in combat?
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
I see another very informed person has joined us. I was going to compare the Mustang Mk.III (P-51B-1) FX 953 using 66.8"Hg boost and F4U-1a 50030 using water injection at 59.8"Hg in high blower and 60.2"Hg in low blower for the next matchup. Please let me know your thoughts on if that would be the correct matchup for around January 1944.
Jeff
Jeff
Neil Stirling
Airman 1st Class
I can't find a test of a standard F4U-1a on Mikes site. FG1A 14575 was described "paraphrase" as being similar to an F4U-1a. 50030 had various mods incorporated in order to run at an increased carb impact pressure and was a fast Corsair. If you look at the aircraft characteristics for the 1-d you can see that the clean aircraft achieved 417 mph, probably representative of a good 1-a.
FX 953 seems representative of a P51-B V-1650-3.
Going from memory, the use of water injection in the Corsair came online in roughly October 43, however, it's very unlikely this became widespread quickly. Most Thunderbolts during early 44 were still using 52" hg for example despite the availability of water injection.
Scrappy presentation and facts due to being on holiday away from data and using an ipad.
Neil.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Thank you Neil. I really appreciate all the help. I hope to have Matchup No.3 put together by tomorrow night after work.
Good night guys, Jeff.
Good night guys, Jeff.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Hi eagledad. Thank you very much for that information. What is your source sir? Does it give a date on the first operational mission?
Does the source say anything about when the first F6F with water injection was used operationally?
Inquisitive little bugger, aren't I? Jeff.
NOTE: Thanks to the input of Neil and eagledad I have revised Matchup No.2.
Does the source say anything about when the first F6F with water injection was used operationally?
Inquisitive little bugger, aren't I? Jeff.
NOTE: Thanks to the input of Neil and eagledad I have revised Matchup No.2.
Last edited:
My sources for the date are:
American Combat Planes 3rd Edition by Ray Wagner, page 387
F4U Corsair at War by Richard Abrams, page 62.
Abrams gives speed as 415 mph at 20,000 ft and a sea level rate of climb of 3,120 ft/ min.
No weights are given. Profile Publication # 47, on the Corsair, by J. F. Dial gives the same performance, but includes an empty weight of 8694.5 lbs and a loaded weight of 11,092.8 pounds. Service ceiling is listed as 37,000 ft.
William Green in his book Famous Fighters Volume 2, gives the following data for the F4U-1a with water injection:
Empty Weight: 8694.8 lbs
Loaded Weight: 12039 lbs
Overloaded Weight: 13120 lbs.
Sea level Climb rate: 3120 ft/ min
Max speed (in mph):
500 ft 328
10000 ft 349
20000 ft 425
No service ceiling given.
I have no data as to when the water injected Corsair entered service, although I suspect it first saw service with the land based Marines, some time in early 1944 (IIRC Ira Kepford of VF-17 was one of the first pilots to use water injection in combat over Rabaul in Jan/Feb 1944 ). Corsairs started operating from US carriers (USS Essex) on Dec 28 1944. (Green as above), some 9 months after the Fleet Air Arm launched their Corsairs form the HMS Illustrious. (Abrams as above)*
Hope that helps!
Eagledad
*that does not include VF-17's landing on the Bunker Hill July 26, 1943.
American Combat Planes 3rd Edition by Ray Wagner, page 387
F4U Corsair at War by Richard Abrams, page 62.
Abrams gives speed as 415 mph at 20,000 ft and a sea level rate of climb of 3,120 ft/ min.
No weights are given. Profile Publication # 47, on the Corsair, by J. F. Dial gives the same performance, but includes an empty weight of 8694.5 lbs and a loaded weight of 11,092.8 pounds. Service ceiling is listed as 37,000 ft.
William Green in his book Famous Fighters Volume 2, gives the following data for the F4U-1a with water injection:
Empty Weight: 8694.8 lbs
Loaded Weight: 12039 lbs
Overloaded Weight: 13120 lbs.
Sea level Climb rate: 3120 ft/ min
Max speed (in mph):
500 ft 328
10000 ft 349
20000 ft 425
No service ceiling given.
I have no data as to when the water injected Corsair entered service, although I suspect it first saw service with the land based Marines, some time in early 1944 (IIRC Ira Kepford of VF-17 was one of the first pilots to use water injection in combat over Rabaul in Jan/Feb 1944 ). Corsairs started operating from US carriers (USS Essex) on Dec 28 1944. (Green as above), some 9 months after the Fleet Air Arm launched their Corsairs form the HMS Illustrious. (Abrams as above)*
Hope that helps!
Eagledad
*that does not include VF-17's landing on the Bunker Hill July 26, 1943.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
America's Hundred Thousand states that the first F4U-1A that had a water injected engine installed was in Nov., 1943. Furthermore, only eight aircraft had water injection until the acceptance of the F4U-1D, no combat data was given, which did not begin production until April, 1944. The first reference to operational use of F4U-1Ds was in Oct., '44 when ten Marine fighter squadrons were authorized for carrier quals and preparations for two F4U-1Ds on each of five fleet carriers were to be made.
Hello davparir
I have looked through my copy of AHT and have found the passage confirming water injection in Nov of 1943. I am at a loss finding where it says only 8 F4U-1a's had water injection. Would you please help me find that?
Corsning,
A mistake in my post to you. Kepford was a navy ace that flew with VF-17 in a land based Corsair. The story that he was one of the first pilots to use water injection in a F4U is from a book on Navy aces that I read many years ago.
Thanks davparir and Corsning for the info.
Eagledad
I have looked through my copy of AHT and have found the passage confirming water injection in Nov of 1943. I am at a loss finding where it says only 8 F4U-1a's had water injection. Would you please help me find that?
Corsning,
A mistake in my post to you. Kepford was a navy ace that flew with VF-17 in a land based Corsair. The story that he was one of the first pilots to use water injection in a F4U is from a book on Navy aces that I read many years ago.
Thanks davparir and Corsning for the info.
Eagledad
