F4U in Europe

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Jerry rigged mounts had been produced at forward bases, but no factory mounts until October 1943.
These were more than "jerry rigged." VF-17 completed a field mod where they were able to carry bombs on their Corsairs, this mod was actually adopted by naval engineers and Vought IIRC. In the book "Jolly Rogers" dedicates a chapter on this and how VF-17 completed strikes against Rabaul.
 
Curiously it appears that the F4U was introduced into combat (Feb 1943) with no provision for external stores, similar to the P-47.
By Feb 1943, the P-47C was in prodution with C/L keel and provisions for C/L 205 gal Ferry Tank or 500 pound bomb.
AHT says that the Navy accepted the first Corsair with an external drop tank fitting in October 1943 after over 1300 had been produced. Jerry rigged mounts had been produced at forward bases, but no factory mounts until October 1943.
True but read the fine print - the F4U-1 carried up to 360 gallons internally. If theatre commanders could over ride regs prohibiting unsealed internal fuel tanks, the F4U-1 had about the same combat radius as P-47D with 110 gal C/L tank... and about 3X P-39 with 120 gal internal and 60 or 75 gal c/l combat tank. By October 1943, the same F4U-1 w/75 gal c/l tank had the same range as the P-47D with 150 gal C/L tank. Later versions eliminated to 2x62 gal inboard wing tanks.

The reason I keep bringng up the P-39 in comparison is that you harped so long about P-39 ability to compete against P-47 as ETO escort. Truth - it was dismissed by RAF as not being suitable for ETO (and every other theatre), followed by giving the P-39D/P-400 to VVS, followed by 8th AF immediately converting P-39 trained FGs arriving in ETO to Spitfires, followed by relegating all P-39 ops to convoy patrol, limited CAS and then followed by giving all to French and Italians.

If a P-51D or P-47N or P-38L was not capable of escorting B-36s to Moscow from UK, did that make them a failure as an escort fighter?
 
These were more than "jerry rigged." VF-17 completed a field mod where they were able to carry bombs on their Corsairs, this mod was actually adopted by naval engineers and Vought IIRC. In the book "Jolly Rogers" dedicates a chapter on this and how VF-17 completed strikes against Rabaul.
Have you seen some of those "field mods?" Point being that factory drop tank mounts were not available until nearly 1944.
 
Have you seen some of those "field mods?" Point being that factory drop tank mounts were not available until nearly 1944.
I have seen images of them. Curiously, they performed as designed and reliably worked.

As an aside, field modifications were performed on both the P-51 and P-47 to slave instrument vacuum pump to darw fuel from external fuel tanks in mid 1943. Depot mods were made on wings of P-47s to mount pylons, install fuel feed and move into opeations well before the P-47D-15 arrived with factory fix. The P-51B had the 85 gal tanks depot installed in November as a 'patch' to bridge to the P-51B-10 with factory tank installed.

Do you have a point? Look into the innovations of Pappy Gunn in SWP and Cass Hough in the ETO. The war didn't wait for factory insertion of critical modifications.
 
By Feb 1943, the P-47C was in prodution with C/L keel and provisions for C/L 205 gal Ferry Tank or 500 pound bomb.
No provision for drop tanks in England until August.
True but read the fine print - the F4U-1 carried up to 360 gallons internally. If theatre commanders could over ride regs prohibiting unsealed internal fuel tanks, the F4U-1 had about the same combat radius as P-47D with 110 gal C/L tank... and about 3X P-39 with 120 gal internal and 60 or 75 gal c/l combat tank. By October 1943, the same F4U-1 w/75 gal c/l tank had the same range as the P-47D with 150 gal C/L tank. Later versions eliminated to 2x62 gal inboard wing tanks.
You need to show me your method for the 3X P-39 radius.
The reason I keep bringng up the P-39 in comparison is that you harped so long about P-39 ability to compete against P-47 as ETO escort. Truth - it was dismissed by RAF as not being suitable for ETO (and every other theatre), followed by giving the P-39D/P-400 to VVS, followed by 8th AF immediately converting P-39 trained FGs arriving in ETO to Spitfires, followed by relegating all P-39 ops to convoy patrol, limited CAS and then followed by giving all to French and Italians.
Dismissed by the RAF because they specified construction of a 7850lb airplane when a 7000lb version would have performed much better. The Russians won the war with it (after reducing the weight by removing redundant or unneeded equipment).
If a P-51D or P-47N or P-38L was not capable of escorting B-36s to Moscow from UK, did that make them a failure as an escort fighter?
You're comparing 1944 fighters to the B-36 which wasn't operational until 1948.
 
Have you seen some of those "field mods?" Point being that factory drop tank mounts were not available until nearly 1944.
I have and many of them received some type of engineering approval. Unless you know what you're looking at it's really hard to use the term "jerry rigged." In the case of VF-17, not only standard bomb shackles were used but Blackburn had to get approval from a Marine Colonel before proceeding.
 
The Russians won the war with it (after reducing the weight by removing redundant or unneeded equipment).
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No provision for drop tanks in England until August.
Provisions were made in production deliveries in February in P-47C-2 (IIRC for model). That said, it was delay in making fuel feed mods and the acquisition of combat tanks - not the 'provision for'.
You need to show me your method for the 3X P-39 radius.
No, I don't. You need to develop better research skills. Start with Pilot handbooks.

Learn how to calculate a range profile and acquire the calculus skills to test your hypothesis for relationship between change in GW vs fuel consumption, integrate the change in GW with the change in cruise AoA, learn how to calculate - and integrate the rate of change to induced drag due to reduction of GW and associated reduction of AoA and CL.

If you don'thave any of the above talents and skills you will have to take my word for the '3x' estimate. Several of us gave you clues regarding fuel fraction use for awrm up, take off, formation forming and climb to cruise on internal fuel - huge (relative) consumption relative to % of available fuel for say F4U-1, P-47 and P-51. When you consume a high percentage of beginning fuel, can't get to higher altitudes to reach an altitude to reduce drag in cruise mode - your puny internal fuel reserve isn't much after combat consumption.
Dismissed by the RAF because they specified construction of a 7850lb airplane when a 7000lb version would have performed much better. The Russians won the war with it (after reducing the weight by removing redundant or unneeded equipment).
Laughing out Loud. Dismissed because deemed 'unsuitable' (RAF for 'we'll sacrifice a lot of pilots to Fw 190/Bf 109 with this turkey' - but Ok for Russkies to ket killed). Somehow the P-39 had very little to do with USSR killing 3-5 million German soldiers and airmen. What it did do, is save lives of some VVS pilots converting from I-16 and Yak-1. That said the LaaG 7 and Yak 3 were far superior.
You're comparing 1944 fighters to the B-36 which wasn't operational until 1948.

You are a model of perception and instantly picked up on that? But somehow all those fighters could escort B-29s from Iwo to and from Japan.
 
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The reason I keep bringng up the P-39 in comparison is that you harped so long about P-39 ability to compete against P-47 as ETO escort. Truth - it was dismissed by RAF as not being suitable for ETO (and every other theatre), followed by giving the P-39D/P-400 to VVS, followed by 8th AF immediately converting P-39 trained FGs arriving in ETO to Spitfires, followed by relegating all P-39 ops to convoy patrol, limited CAS and then followed by giving all to French and Italians.

If a P-51D or P-47N or P-38L was not capable of escorting B-36s to Moscow from UK, did that make them a failure as an escort fighter?
I am not sure where this discussion is headed, and I am new here, so I am not totally into running jokes about P-39s.

The P-47 had excellent performance at 30,000ft, which made it ideal for combat while escorting B-17s and B-24s. The Merlin engined P-51 also were good at this. The Luftwaffe fighters were inferior at the altitudes at which they needed to intercept American heavy bombers. The Germans failed to develop two-stage supercharging until late in the war. The P-38s had good performance up there, but they were not grossly superior. In daylight bombing, your bombers cannot fly any further than your effective escorting fighters.

P-39s were effective below 10,000ft, and useless about 20,000ft. They were useless in the ETO. They were ideal for the Russians, and they were superior to Russian equipment until late in the war. Like the P-39, the Typhoons and Tempests also were fast at low altitude.

P-47s were effective at ground attack late in the war, because the Luftwaffe no longer had the trained, experienced pilots to exploit their inferior performance and shoot them down.

The F4U would have been an effective tactical fighter in Europe, especially if they removed the carrier equipment. It was simpler. A non-carrier version would have been lighter, faster and more manoeuvrable. Its deficiencies would have kept it from being an excellent bomber escort.
 
Provisions were made in production deliveries in February in P-47C-2 (IIRC for model). That said, it was delay in making fuel feed mods and the acquisition of combat tanks - not the 'provision for'.
No drop tanks for the P-47 until August.
No, I don't. You need to develop better research skills. Start with Pilot handbooks.
Okay, one more time just for you. From the P-39N handbook, go to the Flight Operation Instruction Chart (Range Chart). The P-39 was designed to hold at least 120gal internal. Although fuel was reduced to 87gal on some models, an escort mission in Europe would require all 120gal. Add a 110gal drop tank which is what was available at 8thAF bases and was used on the P-39 in the Pacific. Total 230gal. Reduce that by 20gal allowance for takeoff and climb, 26gal for 20min combat at 25000' and 10 gal for a 20 minute landing reserve. Net gallons available for cruise is now 174gal. The P-39 burned 62 gallons per hour at 25000' so 174 divided by 62 = 2.8hrs. Cruising speed was 184mph IAS or 276mph TAS times the 2.8hrs = 773mi. Half that is the combat radius = 386mi. About the same as a 1943 P-47.
Learn how to calculate a range profile and acquire the calculus skills to test your hypothesis for relationship between change in GW vs fuel consumption, integrate the change in GW with the change in cruise AoA, learn how to calculate - and integrate the rate of change to induced drag due to reduction of GW and associated reduction of AoA and CL.
All you need to do is look at the Flight Operation Instruction Chart for either airplane.
If you don'thave any of the above talents and skills you will have to take my word for the '3x' estimate. Several of us gave you clues regarding fuel fraction use for awrm up, take off, formation forming and climb to cruise on internal fuel - huge (relative) consumption relative to % of available fuel for say F4U-1, P-47 and P-51. When you consume a high percentage of beginning fuel, can't get to higher altitudes to reach an altitude to reduce drag in cruise mode - your puny internal fuel reserve isn't much after combat consumption.
I don't need to take your word for anything, I can read. The exact figures per the manual are above.
Laughing out Loud. Dismissed because deemed 'unsuitable' (RAF for 'we'll sacrifice a lot of pilots to Fw 190/Bf 109 with this turkey' - but Ok for Russkies to ket killed). Somehow the P-39 had very little to do with USSR killing 3-5 million German soldiers and airmen. What it did do, is save lives of some VVS pilots converting from I-16 and Yak-1. That said the LaaG 7 and Yak 3 were far superior.
The Russians won the war with it. It shot down more axis planes than any other American fighter. Then there you go again veering off course with "USSR killing 3-5 million German soldiers." Where did that come from? And how were the Lagg 7 and Yak 3 far superior? Yak 3 was not in combat until summer 1944, Lagg 7 not in combat until Fall 1944. P-39N was already out of production by May 1943, a year earlier. Were the Lagg and Yak faster? Better climb? Higher ceiling? Longer range? Nope. How were they better?
You are a model of perception and instantly picked up on that? But somehow all those fighters could escort B-29s from Iwo to and from Japan.
Relevance?
 
Please get it through your cerebellum that there is no such thing!!!! When you fly a land based mission you plan to land with 30 minutes of fuel left in your tanks.

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But I forgot - you're not a pilot, you just read the manuals!
Fine, then use 15gal for the reserve for landing instead of 10. Five gallons less fuel works out to 4.8min less flying time or 22mi cruising range. It is a reserve, you can apply any amount you deem sufficient. The Navy specified a one hour reserve for landing but that was for carrier missions. The AAF could get by easily with 20min reserve since their airbase didn't move while they were gone.
 
Fine, then use 15gal for the reserve for landing instead of 10. Five gallons less fuel works out to 4.8min less flying time or 22mi cruising range. It is a reserve, you can apply any amount you deem sufficient. The Navy specified a one hour reserve for landing but that was for carrier missions. The AAF could get by easily with 20min reserve since their airbase didn't move while they were gone.
And fine but again, no such thing!!!!
 
Fine, then use 15gal for the reserve for landing instead of 10. Five gallons less fuel works out to 4.8min less flying time or 22mi cruising range. It is a reserve, you can apply any amount you deem sufficient. The Navy specified a one hour reserve for landing but that was for carrier missions. The AAF could get by easily with 20min reserve since their airbase didn't move while they were gone.

Are you sure it works out to 4.8 min less flying time? What are the winds aloft? Headwind, tailwind?

Sorry buddy, but you are not doing yourself any favors here.
 

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