F4U in Europe

[nuuumannn]

Where can I get a hat like that?

It's handed down from generation to generation. Only the annointed ones can wear it...

 

[P-39 Expert]

27 mostly derogatory posts since my last post and you complain about the threads being too long.

Yes I read the manuals, which most of you obviously don't.

 

[P-39 Expert]

How long before then had P-47s been operating as escorts?

Since the end of April.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

27 mostly derogatory posts since my last post and you complain about the threads being too long.

Yes I read the manuals, which most of you obviously don't.

Reading and understanding them are two different things.

 

[pbehn]

27 mostly derogatory posts since my last post and you complain about the threads being too long.

Yes I read the manuals, which most of you obviously don't.

My post wasnt derogatory I just said you were wrong where I know you are wrong, the actual pilots on here do the same. The problem seems to be you read a manual and take from it what you want to take, not what is correct. We have been through it all before, it is just groundhoggery.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Please get it through your cerebellum that there is no such thing!!!! When you fly a land based mission you plan to land with 30 minutes of fuel left in your tanks.

View attachment 652198

But I forgot - you're not a pilot, you just read the manuals!

If you plan to land with 30 minutes of fuel left in your tanks, then you have planned for a 30 minute landing reserve.

And there is certainly such a thing as a landing reserve. Look at the Navy "Airplane Characteristics and Performance" sheets for the F4F, F6F and F4U. In the range calculation section there is a "60 minute rendezvous, landing and reserve at V for max range and auto-lean (lowest power/highest range setting). AAF pilots needed a much shorter reserve because their landing field was in the same place as when they took off and they were very familiar with it's location. They needed the reserve in case the base was under attack or weather had rolled in.

Your cerebellum needs revision.

 

[pbehn]

If you plan to land with 30 minutes of fuel left in your tanks, then you have planned for a 30 minute landing reserve.

And there is certainly such a thing as a landing reserve. Look at the Navy "Airplane Characteristics and Performance" sheets for the F4F, F6F and F4U. In the range calculation section there is a "60 minute rendezvous, landing and reserve at V for max range and auto-lean (lowest power/highest range setting). AAF pilots needed a much shorter reserve because their landing field was in the same place as when they took off and they were very familiar with it's location. They needed the reserve in case the base was under attack or weather had rolled in.

Your cerebellum needs revision.

Is that from the Navy? What do they do when the plane operates from land? Well obviously it is a different situation, as per the AAF POV. The situation changes again when you have to form up and cruise with bombers who are not flying to or from your airfield.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If you plan to land with 30 minutes of fuel left in your tanks, then you have planned for a 30 minute landing reserve.

It is NOT called LANDING RESERVE! Is this from your armchair glossary of aeronautical terms?!?!?

And there is certainly such a thing as a landing reserve. Look at the Navy "Airplane Characteristics and Performance" sheets for the F4F, F6F and F4U. In the range calculation section there is a "60 minute rendezvous, landing and reserve at V for max range and auto-lean (lowest power/highest range setting). AAF pilots needed a much shorter reserve because their landing field was in the same place as when they took off and they were very familiar with it's location. They needed the reserve in case the base was under attack or weather had rolled in.

SAME AS ABOVE!!!!

Do you realize that given a situation a pilot could blast over a base at full power, go into the overhead break, land and piss your non-existent "landing reserve" out the window? At the same token enter the pattern, go to engine idle and do a simulated power off landing and hardly burn up any fuel???

I bet you haven't got to that part in the manuals you read!

Your cerebellum needs revision.

2 weeks on the beach! I hope you meet a cute groundhog there!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

27 mostly derogatory posts since my last post and you complain about the threads being too long.

Yes I read the manuals, which most of you obviously don't.

Yes you do but you do not comprehend what you read - there are many of us who worked on MANY aircraft to include (mechanics, pilots and engineers) warbirds, have tried initially and rationally explain things to you, but you have a piss poor know-it-all attitude thus becoming the laughing stock of this forum

Between the mechanics, engineers and pilots on here I'd bet there's over 200 years of combined experience on this forum (if not more). By your own admission, you have never worked on an aircraft, let alone flown one and then you try to tell some of these folks they're wrong when they all come up with the same consensus to one of your comments! If you're too stubborn or ignorant to accept when you're wrong let alone LEARN SOMETHIG the derogatory comments will continue by the membership who are just tired of putting up with your BS (literary)

Consider this while you sit on the beach with your favorite manual and ground hog.

 

[wuzak]

If you plan to land with 30 minutes of fuel left in your tanks, then you have planned for a 30 minute landing reserve.

I always thought the reserve was in case of unforeseen circumstances, such as being off course and flying a longer route as a consequence, or more combat than you have otherwise accounted for, or damage to the aircraft which means you use more fuel than planned for in the return trip.

 

[wuzak]

Since the end of April.

So, 3 or 4 months without drop tanks for the P-47?

 

[drgondog]

Fine, then use 15gal for the reserve for landing instead of 10. Five gallons less fuel works out to 4.8min less flying time or 22mi cruising range. It is a reserve, you can apply any amount you deem sufficient. The Navy specified a one hour reserve for landing but that was for carrier missions. The AAF could get by easily with 20min reserve since their airbase didn't move while they were gone.

You do not know how to read the Operating Tables for Range with and without 75 gal tank.

You do not know the definition or operating parameters for translating maximum operating range to Combat Radius planning assumptions.

You do not read the footnotes with respect to a.) using 16 gal of internal fuel for Warm Up, T.O. and climb to 5,000 feet, b.) using 20 gal of internal fuel for Warm Up, T.O. and climb to 5,000 feet with 75 gal tank.

You do not read the fine print for zero reserve calculation in the Range Table.

You do not seem aware that only one line exists for 20K altitude none for 25K altitude and that the max Range calc for 75 gal external is 690miles - at 15K, not 20K not 25K at a cruise speed of 170 mph IAS. BTW the TAS of the 15,000 foot flying P-39 for maximum RANGE is slower than B-17s flying 10,000 feet above the P-39Q.

The Operating Range Tables do Not include the fuel consumption for climb from 5,000 feet (at Max Continuous) to 15, 20 or 25K. Max Contnuous Power burn rate for the V-1710-89 is 109gph. Military Power is 138gph, Combat Power is 170gph. Even assuming Table Values for Military Power at 138 for Combat at max radius (i.e. no WEP at 170gph for 5 min),you have to subtract 138/3 for 20minutes=46 gal.

So, independent of cruise leg that P-39Q assigned escort duties for 25K, a.) uses 20 gal from Warm Up to 5K, b.)approximately 10minutes at Max Continuous Power to climb (clean) from 5K to 25K (source Dean AOHT) = 109/6 = 18gal, c.) 46 gal Combat at max radius d.) 20 minutes Reserve to find home base and land at Min Cruise Power (42gph/3) = 13. (source for a., b., c. and d P-39Q Handbook),

Of your 120 gal of internal fuel (you don't switch to external tanks until cruise altitude) you must subtract

20+18 + 46+ 13 gal =97 gal of your internal fuel Not used to cruise to and from the target to Let Down to find your base. Assuming your 75 gal tank could conceivably complete leg to Target and Combat (VERY Bad assumption), that leaves you with 23 gal (optimistic, no provision for flying formation, etc).

Get out yer sliderule kid, show me what you get in straight line RANGE at 25,000 feet flying minimum fuel burn rate of 42gph with 23 gallons of fuel at approx 170IAS (optimistic) at 25K. That 'Leg' is your Combat Radius.

And BTW, the P-39Q can not fight anything useful at 25K, much less keep up with B-17/B-24 fully loaded. The LW will destroy all available P-39s in inventory in a couple of missions and the 8th AF will finally be able to use the P-47, P-38 and P-51 unmolested by P-39 acolytes.

Seriously, are we still stroking the damn P-39??

My Bad.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I always thought the reserve was in case of unforeseen circumstances, such as being off course and flying a longer route as a consequence, or more combat than you have otherwise accounted for, or damage to the aircraft which means you use more fuel than planned for in the return trip.

Exactly! Once again our friend makes up fictions terms to compensate for things he was reading into the manuals but did not have the real world education or experience to fully understand the full concept, and then refuses to accept any input from those who actually used this data to fly or maintain real aircraft.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You do not know how to read the Operating Tables for Range with and without 75 gal tank.

You do not know the definition or operating parameters for translating maximum operating range to Combat Radius planning assumptions.

You do not read the footnotes with respect to a.) using 16 gal of internal fuel for Warm Up, T.O. and climb to 5,000 feet, b.) using 20 gal of internal fuel for Warm Up, T.O. and climb to 5,000 feet with 75 gal tank.

You do not read the fine print for zero reserve calculation in the Range Table.

You do not seem aware that only one line exists for 20K altitude none for 25K altitude and that the max Range calc for 75 gal external is 690miles - at 15K, not 20K not 25K at a cruise speed of 170 mph IAS. BTW the TAS of the 15,000 foot flying P-39 for maximum RANGE is slower than B-17s flying 10,000 feet above the P-39Q.

The Operating Range Tables do Not include the fuel consumption for climb from 5,000 feet (at Max Continuous) to 15, 20 or 25K. Max Contnuous Power burn rate for the V-1710-89 is 109gph. Military Power is 138gph, Combat Power is 170gph. Even assuming Table Values for Military Power at 138 for Combat at max radius (i.e. no WEP at 170gph for 5 min),you have to subtract 138/3 for 20minutes=46 gal.

So, independent of cruise leg that P-39Q assigned escort duties for 25K, a.) uses 20 gal from Warm Up to 5K, b.)approximately 10minutes at Max Continuous Power to climb (clean) from 5K to 25K (source Dean AOHT) = 109/6 = 18gal, c.) 46 gal Combat at max radius d.) 20 minutes Reserve to find home base and land at Min Cruise Power (42gph/3) = 13. (source for a., b., c. and d P-39Q Handbook),

Of your 120 gal of internal fuel (you don't switch to external tanks until cruise altitude) you must subtract

20+18 + 46+ 13 gal =97 gal of your internal fuel Not used to cruise to and from the target to Let Down to find your base. Assuming your 75 gal tank could conceivably complete leg to Target and Combat (VERY Bad assumption), that leaves you with 23 gal (optimistic, no provision for flying formation, etc).

Get out yer sliderule kid, show me what you get in straight line RANGE at 25,000 feet flying minimum fuel burn rate of 42gph with 23 gallons of fuel at approx 170IAS (optimistic) at 25K. That 'Leg' is your Combat Radius.

And BTW, the P-39Q can not fight anything useful at 25K, much less keep up with B-17/B-24 fully loaded. The LW will destroy all available P-39s in inventory in a couple of missions and the 8th AF will finally be able to use the P-47, P-38 and P-51 unmolested by P-39 acolytes.


My Bad.

Was not directed at you personally.

 

[pbehn]

I always thought the reserve was in case of unforeseen circumstances, such as being off course and flying a longer route as a consequence, or more combat than you have otherwise accounted for, or damage to the aircraft which means you use more fuel than planned for in the return trip.

A better name would be contingency, reserve gets mixed up with "reserve tank" which exists as a separate tank in some vehicles, or as part of the tank with a different tap on motorcycles. The "reserve" being discussed here only exists as a calculation, in other areas of life like a production schedule it is called a contingency.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Get out yer sliderule kid, show me what you get in straight line RANGE at 25,000 feet flying minimum fuel burn rate of 42gph with 23 gallons of fuel at approx 170IAS (optimistic) at 25K. That 'Leg' is your Combat Radius.

Bill, because our friend is temporarily in cyberspace, I broke out the ole E6B and just to add to the ambiance, I used my genuine AAF issue. It's been a while since I used one of these, LOL but based on this I come out with a whopping 90 miles! EDIT 94 miles!

23 gallons at 170I gives you 33 minutes = 90~ miles EDIT 94 miles!

It's kind of funny because a similar scenario was done on the original Ground Hog thread I think by ShortRound6 and he came up with about the same thing!

 

[fubar57]

 

[Conslaw]

Curiously it appears that the F4U was introduced into combat (Feb 1943) with no provision for external stores, similar to the P-47. AHT says that the Navy accepted the first Corsair with an external drop tank fitting in October 1943 after over 1300 had been produced. Jerry rigged mounts had been produced at forward bases, but no factory mounts until October 1943.

I remember in Tom Blackburn's book The Jolly Rogers, he said that his squadron improvised bomb racks for their Corsairs, which didn't come with them. I imagine some other folks will post with more interesting details on the F4U's external stores issues.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I remember in Tom Blackburn's book The Jolly Rogers, he said that his squadron improvised bomb racks for their Corsairs, which didn't come with them. I imagine some other folks will post with more interesting details on the F4U's external stores issues.

I just got done reading this book (mentioned earlier). Blackburn's unit used original bomb shackles modified to VF-17's aircraft. He had some smart people in his squadron so this wasn't a "jerry-rigged" installation. it was tried and tested and he had to get the blessing of a Marine Colonel (his boss) before he was able to use this installation.

 

[BiffF15]

Bill, because our friend is temporarily in cyberspace, I broke out the ole E6B and just to add to the ambiance, I used my genuine AAF issue. It's been a while since I used one of these, LOL but based on this I come out with a whopping 90 miles!

23 gallons at 170I gives you 33 minutes = 90~ miles

View attachment 652294


View attachment 652295



It's kind of funny because a similar scenario was done on the original Ground Hog thread I think by ShortRound6 and he came up with about the same thing!

I still have my USGI version as well. Carried it according to regulations on every single F15 sortie I flew. I can also say I never ONCE pulled it out and used it ever after pilot training.

Cheers,
Biff