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Thanks drgondog.I've read it - and suspect that one key feature of WWII Combat Mustangs (B/D) was not used for this test. Mustang Roll rate and stick force was described as heavy at high speed. All B/D Mustangs had 10/12/15 degree rigging and left the factory with 15 degrees. The warbird community is largely unaware and when asked, every one I have talked to about 15 degrees are actually surprised - replying that every Mustang they have flown are rigged for 10 degrees - which is no different from A-36 or P-51A. In fact a P-51A is more agile in both roll and turn because they are no equipped with reverse rudder boost tab or DF - and the B/D is heavier.
ALL WWII P-51B/D pilots will tell you that roll characteristics of their airframe were suprior to any comparable a/c save the Fw 190 and was better than 190 at or greater than 300 mph TAS. Army filight tests also indicated that characteristic, but noted that the P-40 for example, rolled slightly faster at lower airspeeds.
Thank you, Shortround6.There may be links to the article either further back in thread or in another old thread.
I know I have read it on line and I believe it was either copied here or linked here.
A lot of people want a clear "winner" in these sorts of comparisons, but such a victor usually doesn't exist and Internet (and pre-Internet) discussion frequently goes down to the level a third grader (about 8 to those unfamiliar with US schools) would find embarrassingly puerile.Thank you, Shortround6.
A quick search located the thread, with uploaded text, here: Ending the Argument
It is an interesting read. The conclusion is interesting as well. It reminds me of a day back in the 60's when my father and a neighbor were "debating" Mustang (Ford not NAA) vs Camaro next to their cars in the front yard. I think they are still debating.
It is incontestable that the Corsair was a remarkably successful and long-lived combat aircraft, and one which could fight with any contemporary piston-engined fighter on equal terms. That it didn't in Europe only shows that it wasn't there, not that it couldn't.
...yet at least one Navy aircraft was used by the USAAF in combat during WW2, the SBD. The BF2C (A-25) was close, but missed. The PBY (OA-10) was used by the USAAF for SAR.The reason it wasn't there was because it was a Navy aircraft, and the Army wasn't going to use a Navy aircraft if it could avoid it.
While mostly true, the real reason is simply there weren't enough Corsairs to meet all the USN/Lend Lease Comitments - even if Army wanted them in 1943 when they could properly be vetted.The reason it wasn't there was because it was a Navy aircraft, and the Army wasn't going to use a Navy aircraft if it could avoid it.
AHT says just under 2300 F4Us built in 1943 while about 1700 P-51s were built, Plus just over 4400 P-47s, Plus just under 2500 P-38s.While mostly true, the real reason is simply there weren't enough Corsairs to meet all the USN/Lend Lease Comitments - even if Army wanted them in 1943 when they could properly be vetted.
...yet at least one Navy aircraft was used by the USAAF in combat during WW2, the SBD. The BF2C (A-25) was close, but missed. The PBY (OA-10) was used by the USAAF for SAR.
The FAA ended up with about one out of every six F4Us built - that wouldn't leave many for the USAF, if they had wanted it.
As it happens, the USAF operated more Navy-ordered types than the other way around.
In addition to the above mentioned PBY and SBD, the USAF also operated the JRF (OA-9), J2F (OA-12), J4F (OA-14), PV-1/2 (B-34 for ASW and B-37 for training).
Your statement is too generalized and must be broken down into specific circumstances. During the tests the FW 190 was actually slower than the F4U-1 below 15,000 feet. Furthermore, the climb rates were compared at the "best climbing speeds" as this is optimum for each specific aircraft under test. Both US Navy aircraft had a lower "best climbing speed" than the German fighter. At these speeds the F4U climbed better than the FW 190 up to 20,000 feet and the F6F was similar in climb below 15,000 feet. Most data that I've seen shows the three aircraft taking a similar amount of time to reach 20,000 feet (8 - 8.5 minutes without WEP) with the Corsair and Hellcat climbing at a steeper angle of climb and the FW 190 at a faster climbing speed so this makes perfect sense to me.Considering that the Fw 190 in the test, that probably wasn't in perfectly serviceable condition, and flown by pilots almost completely unfamiliar with the type, still out-ran, out-rolled (sort of), and out-climbed both the F6F and F4U, yet the Navy still came to conclusion that the Fw 190 was "not equal to the F4U-1 or F6F-3 in combat."
Was the aircraft in the Navy test actually an A5 variant? The report only says it was a "FW-190-A/4" and was a "converted fighter-bomber, and was not the standard fighter version"Great photo of FW 190A-5 used during testing
Was the aircraft in the Navy test actually an A5 variant? The report only says it was a "FW-190-A/4" and was a "converted fighter-bomber, and was not the standard fighter version"
Edit: Perhaps it was in fact an A-5/U4?
I do not doubt the experiences of the Navy test pilots, I just suspect that the Fw190 either wasn't performing properly, or wasn't operated at maximum performance due to unfamiliarity with the type, or a combination of the two factors.Both US Navy aircraft had a lower "best climbing speed" than the German fighter. At these speeds the F4U climbed better than the FW 190 up to 20,000 feet and the F6F was similar in climb below 15,000 feet. Most data that I've seen shows the three aircraft taking a similar amount of time to reach 20,000 feet (8 - 8.5 minutes without WEP) with the Corsair and Hellcat climbing at a steeper angle of climb and the FW 190 at a faster climbing speed so this makes perfect sense to me.
I don't have this report but would love to read it. What were the loaded weights of each aircraft, were they close to what was considered a normal loaded fighter? If not that would affect climb performance.I do not doubt the experiences of the Navy test pilots, I just suspect that the Fw190 either wasn't performing properly, or wasn't operated at maximum performance due to unfamiliarity with the type, or a combination of the two factors.
Interesting to note, that when the RAF miraculously secured Faber's Fw190A-3 in June 1942, the AFDU report regarding the relative climbing performance of the captured type and a Spitfire Mk.VB (which was no slouch in the climbing department) was as such:
"The climb of the Fw 190 is superior to that of the Spitfire VB at all heights. The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same, but the angle of the Fw 190 is considerably steeper. Under maximum continuous climbing conditions the climb of the Fw 190 is about 450ft/min better up to 25,000ft. With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the Fw 190 is even more marked. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the Fw 190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the Spitfire has no hope of catching it"
I have no idea what the loaded weights of the respective aircraft were, but the report does mention that both Spitfire types were representative of operational types, as both were pulled from operational units for the purposes of the trial. At least as per "Spitfire: A complete fighting history" by Alfred Price, which was my source. The RAF was desperate to know the true capabilities of the new German fighter, so I suspect they tested the Fw 190 exactly as they received it.I don't have this report but would love to read it. What were the loaded weights of each aircraft, were they close to what was considered a normal loaded fighter? If not that would affect climb performance.
Did the Spitfire have a Mark 61 or a later engine? This affects authorized boost considerably. And from what I understand the FW 190 was running in an over-boosted state through some of the testing (1.42 ata) which is higher than authorized for the A-3 when flown by Faber.They then tested the same captured Fw 190 against a brand new Spitfire IX pulled from No64 squadron in July of 1942. Again, keeping in mind that the Mk IX Spitfire was an excellent climbing aircraft, by most accounts.
"During comparative climbs at various heights up to 23,000 feet, with both aircraft flying under maximum continuous climbing conditions, little difference was found between the two aircraft although on the whole the Spitfire IX was slightly better. Above 22,000 feet the climb of the Fw 190 is falling off rapidly, whereas the climb of the Spitfire IX is increasing. When both aircraft were flying at high cruising speed and were pulled up into a climb from level flight, the Fw 190 had a slight advantage in the initial stages of the climb due to its better acceleration. This superiority was slightly increased when both aircraft were pulled up into the climb from a dive. It must be appreciated that the differences between the two aircraft are only slight and that in actual combat the advantage in climb will be with the aircraft that has the initiative."
Of course the performance of both the Mk.V and IX would only increase (As would the Fw 190), with increases in boost pressure periodically throughout the remainder of the war, but it is still somewhat surprising how well matched the Fw 190 was with the Mk IX with respect to climb performance.