F4U in Europe

[pbehn]

In the early days of aviation, many naming conventions were applied from the nautical realm as the technology evolved.
Vertical control surfaces were "rudders", they had "rigging" (a term from sailing ships, which were still in use at the time), the left side was "port" and the right was "starboard" (the red and green marker lamps were eventually applied as time went by), groups of aircraft were called "squadrons" and even some nation's air groups were called "flotillas" early on.

Even the terms pilot and cockpit come from ships and seafaring.

 

[GrauGeist]

"Stringers" are the structural "ribs" in a vessel, too.

 

[BiffF15]

Aileron deflection setting for max throw. 10/12 or 15 Degrees. I still haven't found out what the factory setting was in 1943-1945 as deleivered - but believe 15-
IIRC the USAF re-set to 10 degrees post war and many P-51s that went into civilian market were at 10. Of all the Warbird piots I know, only John Muszula II was aware before I mentioned it - and flies his B/D Mustangs at 15. I think he is rigging dada's rebuilt P-51D-20-NA 44-72253 WR-B JANE VI at 15 degrees.

Bill,

Any idea why the civilian / warbird world flies at 10 degrees vice the higher settings?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[drgondog]

No I was not "under the impression that life sops at 18-22k" - I was trying to provide a benchmark to compare the various aircraft. I know they could still perform pretty well above their FTH. And I had read that Fw 190 was starting to have some trouble at above 20k ft but some of the posts in this thread seemed to indicate it had better altitude performance than the F4U. Numbers can be looked at from various different angles.

As I stated, from what I understand about the operational histories I would assume the F4U would have done better than Spit 5, P-40F, or even the early P-38s that were flying in the Med Theater, and they were holding their own. So I would presume the F4U could have done quite well. I don't know how it would compare to the Spit IX though.

As for the maneuverability / turn rate of the Mustang, I have to call that into question. It's an interesting issue about stringing the ailerons to 10 vs 12 or 15 degrees. I remember something like that being an issue with the P-51A and A-36 (etc). but that would affect roll more than turn right? I still remember pilots like Jeff Ethel who presumably knew what they were talking about, saying in 1990 that a P-51 was like a flying "block of cement" compared to a P-40.

I knew Jeff very well and Jeff was also unaware of the standard wartime P-51B/C/D/K rigging. Jeff also mostly flew Mustangs with the Reverse Rudder boost tab - which is DESIGNED to inhibit roll at very high dive speeds.

Talk to John Musula II if you want a careful and studied opinion. Or any WWII fighter ace that got most scores in a P-51B/D, like Bud Anderson. My father had signigicant advanced fighter training an a P-40 and would acknowledge that the P-40 rolled and turned better at low to medium speed but not at high speed. Ditto the Bf 109G that he flew at Gabligen as post VE DatCO of the 355th FG. Several 355th fighter aces flew mock combat with the 109G-6 and Fw 190 two seat variants. Anecdotal purely but each considered the 109 and 190 much fun to fly at low to medium speeds and the 190 continued to be a better rolling/reversal airplane deep into the speed envelope where the 51s took over above 300+kts.

Bill,

Any idea why the civilian / warbird world flies at 10 degrees vice the higher settings?

Cheers,
Biff

I believe ignorance of a.) the capability, and b.) the benefit to handling above 300 kts

 

[drgondog]

B/C/D had the same aileron size as P-51A / NA 73 / A-36?

yes - but there were changes made to the spar that the aileron was mounted from as well as number of hinges (2 to 3) from P-51A to P-51B-1 (same two) to P-51B-5 (three) The aileron was basically the same until the NA-105 projects in which everything changed including the airfoil, the wing area, the aileron.

 

[pbehn]

I believe ignorance of a.) the capability, and b.) the benefit to handling above 300 kts

Was/is it to avoid the dangers of over correction with inexperienced pilots, or is it some other plane I am thinking about?

 

[Howard Gibson]

In the early days of aviation, many naming conventions were applied from the nautical realm as the technology evolved.
Vertical control surfaces were "rudders", they had "rigging" (a term from sailing ships, which were still in use at the time), the left side was "port" and the right was "starboard" (the red and green marker lamps were eventually applied as time went by), groups of aircraft were called "squadrons" and even some nation's air groups were called "flotillas" early on.

The terminology makes sense and it is useful.

I have done mechanical design on equipment that goes into aircraft. To me, the terms "left" and "right" are relative to a where you or I are standing, or to a view on a drawing. The terms "port" and "starboard" are absolute. Sometimes, this matters.

 

[GrauGeist]

The terminology makes sense and it is useful.

I have done mechanical design on equipment that goes into aircraft. To me, the terms "left" and "right" are relative to a where you or I are standing, or to a view on a drawing. The terms "port" and "starboard" are absolute. Sometimes, this matters.

In the automotive world, right and left are applied from the view as sitting behind the wheel.
This of course reflects the nautical convention of port/starboard, since it's also the view of the ship's pilot.

So if your standing in front of your vehicle and the right headlight is burned out, you'd be looking to the left to check it!

 

[nuuumannn]

To me, the terms "left" and "right" are relative to a where you or I are standing, or to a view on a drawing.

In an aviation context that's not always the case. The Right Hand wing is always the starboard wing and vice versa with the Left Hand wing. It doesn't matter where you are viewing the aircraft from. We'd receive defect logs that read "Replace RH OB main wheel" Right Hand Out Board in case you're wondering. Our pilots wrote the logs in a similar fashion, so it isn't just the mechanics who refer to aircraft in such a way.

 

[GrauGeist]

In an aviation context that's not always the case. The Right Hand wing is always the starboard wing and vice versa with the Left Hand wing. It doesn't matter where you are viewing the aircraft from. We'd receive defect logs that read "Replace RH OB main wheel" Right Hand Out Board in case you're wondering. Our pilots wrote the logs in a similar fashion, so it isn't just the mechanics who refer to aircraft in such a way.

I used to get "fix orders" for lightbars repairs on patrol vehicles or fire apparatus.
If the work order said "right alley light inoperative) I'd go to the right side (passenger side here in the U.S.) and pull the cover to examine the bulb.
Most of the time, they got it right, but once in a while, the order would be written up by a cadet who was standing in front of the vehicle, and use their perspective to note the equipment issue!

It took a bit of detective work and got fixed in the end

 

[NTGray]

The terminology makes sense and it is useful.

I have done mechanical design on equipment that goes into aircraft. To me, the terms "left" and "right" are relative to a where you or I are standing, or to a view on a drawing. The terms "port" and "starboard" are absolute. Sometimes, this matters.

Absolute with reference to the aircraft. Same idea as using the terms "stage right" and "stage left" in theater, which are absolute with reference to a performer on stage facing the audience.

 

[NevadaK]

I knew Jeff very well and Jeff was also unaware of the standard wartime P-51B/C/D/K rigging. Jeff also mostly flew Mustangs with the Reverse Rudder boost tab - which is DESIGNED to inhibit roll at very high dive speeds.

Talk to John Musula II if you want a careful and studied opinion. Or any WWII fighter ace that got most scores in a P-51B/D, like Bud Anderson. My father had signigicant advanced fighter training an a P-40 and would acknowledge that the P-40 rolled and turned better at low to medium speed but not at high speed. Ditto the Bf 109G that he flew at Gabligen as post VE DatCO of the 355th FG. Several 355th fighter aces flew mock combat with the 109G-6 and Fw 190 two seat variants. Anecdotal purely but each considered the 109 and 190 much fun to fly at low to medium speeds and the 190 continued to be a better rolling/reversal airplane deep into the speed envelope where the 51s took over above 300+kts.

I believe ignorance of a.) the capability, and b.) the benefit to handling above 300 kts

I'm well out of my zone on this, but based on comments from P-51 owners at the Reno Air Races, I suspect that the planes are being set up in a very conservative fashion to extend the life of the airframe. That's my guess.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm well out of my zone on this, but based on comments from P-51 owners at the Reno Air Races, I suspect that the planes are being set up in a very conservative fashion to extend the life of the airframe. That's my guess.

You may (or may not) know that at Reno each race class is broken into 3 divisions - Gold, silver and bronze. With regards to the Unlimiteds you'll usually see the stock aircraft in the bronze or silver, the gold you'll usually find the highly modified racers and from what I've seen their set up is far from conservative.

 

[BiffF15]

I'm well out of my zone on this, but based on comments from P-51 owners at the Reno Air Races, I suspect that the planes are being set up in a very conservative fashion to extend the life of the airframe. That's my guess.

NevadaK,

I would agree that owners look to maximize life during their stewardship of the planes. However what Bill is speaking to with aileron deflection equates to good, better, and best roll rates (10/12/15 degrees). I doubt anyone flying these planes today is doing max deflection aileron rolls, especially at high speed (the faster you go the more stress put on the wing during full deflection rolls). The 10 degree default setting might be a way to keep the plane more docile at least in roll.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[NevadaK]

You may (or may not) know that at Reno each race class is broken into 3 divisions - Gold, silver and bronze. With regards to the Unlimiteds you'll usually see the stock aircraft in the bronze or silver, the gold you'll usually find the highly modified racers and from what I've seen their set up is far from conservative.

Thanks FLYBOYJ,

Yeah, I wasn't putting the highly modified racers in that category. I was thinking of the aircraft that are more "stock".

Thanks,

Kk

 

[NevadaK]

NevadaK,

I would agree that owners look to maximize life during their stewardship of the planes. However what Bill is speaking to with aileron deflection equates to good, better, and best roll rates (10/12/15 degrees). I doubt anyone flying these planes today is doing max deflection aileron rolls, especially at high speed (the faster you go the more stress put on the wing during full deflection rolls). The 10 degree default setting might be a way to keep the plane more docile at least in roll.

Cheers,
Biff

Agree, BiffF15.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks FLYBOYJ,

Yeah, I wasn't putting the highly modified racers in that category. I was thinking of the aircraft that are more "stock".

Thanks,

Kk

I think you'll find the stock guys treating their aircraft with kid gloves just like Biff mentioned. You can see by their speeds and the way they fly around the track that they are out there to have fun more than anything else.

 

[pbehn]

NevadaK,

I would agree that owners look to maximize life during their stewardship of the planes. However what Bill is speaking to with aileron deflection equates to good, better, and best roll rates (10/12/15 degrees). I doubt anyone flying these planes today is doing max deflection aileron rolls, especially at high speed (the faster you go the more stress put on the wing during full deflection rolls). The 10 degree default setting might be a way to keep the plane more docile at least in roll.

Cheers,
Biff

Meteors were rigged heavy on the controls to avoid over stressing the wings.

 

[Schweik]

It's interesting that the British tried to apply nautical concepts to tanks, thinking of them as 'cruisers' etc., but it didn't really stick.

 

[NevadaK]

I think you'll find the stock guys treating their aircraft with kid gloves just like Biff mentioned. You can see by their speeds and the way they fly around the track that they are out there to have fun more than anything else.

The last couple races have pretty much been all stock. I moved up to Reno in 2016 and had an opportunity to see Voodoo and Strega go at it, but the modified have all pretty much retired. I typically go on Friday for the smaller crowd and ability to get around the pits better. My connection with the races goes back to the seventies. My family is from Kalamazoo, Michigan and my step-father who was a professional helicopter pilot was acquainted with Gunther Balz who won the unlimited class in Miss Roto Finish in 1972.