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Jets, because of their higher attack speeds, weren't as successful at ground attack as their piston forebears such as the A-1 Skyraider or Hawker Tempest, capable of carrying a large array of ordinance, good loiter, and exceptional maneuverability. The A-10 came later when the U.S. Army was considering an attack helicopter (AH-56 Cheyenne) that the Air Force saw as a threat to keeping the CAS role. Here, Pierre Sprey used input from A-1 Skyraider pilots and ground commanders to develop the initial design requirements for what became the A-10.Post-war the USAF didn't order any attack-designated aircraft, did it? The first in the tri-service system is the A-9. A-10 is the only one they have ordered post-WW2.
RR Nene had plenty of thrust and TBO. The supposed advantage of axial over centrifugal took a long time to materialize in the operational world.
And it is useless to compare aircraft from a time of such rapid technological change from seventy years ago, where a couple of months covers so many developments and what was going on elsewhere was secret.
So I guess if they can keep them down safely to a high enough air-speed, you're good to go.F4U Corsairs could use their landing gear as dive brakes, there was a selector in the landing gear controls that allowed the selection of main gear only. leaving the tail wheel retracted.
Which the Navy had less trouble with because they could move the base into position to attack their target.The Army tried using single engine Navy dive bombers early in WW II but lost interest real quick. A big problem was range.
1. How much range was needed to operate over the Pacific in conditions from 1942-1943?Obviously long range was desired for new designs which often meant at least some sort of Bomb-bay even if only for part of the load.
What caused the delay? A matter of simple technological progression, funding shrinking post war, or both?Post war with the introduction of jets there were several problems. One was the above mentioned stalling of development for several years. Jet engine gave unmatched performance but they had around 1/10 the overhaul life of a good piston engine. Something happened ( or a number of somethings) and the performance and engine life uncorked around 1950 and all the promise of the jet engine came in with a rush after 4-5 years of slow progress.
That I'm well aware of, but when it comes to other fighters of the era (and I feel like I'm repeating myself), it didn't perform very good.As far as fighter vs fighter goes in Korea, once the Mig 15 showed up, every straight wing fighter was demoted to a distant 2nd place.
Which reflects the desire for strafing-planes.just about every USAAC attack aircraft in the 1930s had four .30 cal guns for strafing
Of course, but those were very large aircraftThe A-20s, as they left the factory, rarely had more than four .30 cal guns until the first "G" models in Feb 1943.
First of all, the last attack designations that the USAAF had was A-45 if I recall.Post-war the USAF didn't order any attack-designated aircraft, did it? The first in the tri-service system is the A-9. A-10 is the only one they have ordered post-WW2.
Well, if you're evaluating excellent designs, average designs, substandard designs, or flops, you can compare from everywhere.And it is useless to compare aircraft from a time of such rapid technological change from seventy years ago, where a couple of months covers so many developments and what was going on elsewhere was secret.
You make very good points, but I want to point out the followingAnother thing to consider, the political climate within USAF leadership at the time. This was the era (more like error) of the "Bomber Boys," flush with success from WWII's strategic bombing campaign, along with a new bomb that wrecked entire cities, they relegated fighters to bomber intercept and ground attack.
From 1945-1953, far as I know that was still considered highly important. Missiles seemed to appear on the scene in 1954, and that did have a strong effect on the face of aerial combat. The USAF did categorize fighters into several categories, and interceptors usually didn't carry guns; most others did however.Being able to out-maneuver an opponent in aerial combat was not part of the equation.
When was this?Commanders were routinely cautioned not to even discuss "dogfighting." Missiles, as the new dogma dictated, would remove the need for aerial combat training.
Yup, turning circle, and endurance with payload are key.Jets, because of their higher attack speeds, weren't as successful at ground attack as their piston forebears such as the A-1
Which is funny because they didn't even want it -- they just didn't want the Army to have it.The A-10 came later when the U.S. Army was considering an attack helicopter (AH-56 Cheyenne) that the Air Force saw as a threat to keeping the CAS role.
Sprey actually did a good job on this, but Sprey had a tendency to risk terminological inexactitude at times.Pierre Sprey used input from A-1 Skyraider pilots and ground commanders to develop the initial design requirements for what became the A-10.
a statement applicable to every fighter. Ruggedness often implies increased weight and the F-84 was rugged. It was indeed heavier than the F-80, slightly heavier than the F9F, equal to the F-86A, and much lighter than the F2H. I'm not sure weight was unreasonable.-- it could have used more agility and a lot less weight.
The F-84E, the plane sent to Korea, seems to have had most of the bugs worked out. Main problem seems to have been shortages of parts, especially the J-35 engine. This seems to have been caused by underestimating the F-84 utilization rate which affected spare procurement.But not at the beginning -- the F-84 wasn't that good at the beginning.
Turning performance does not a great fighter make. Many a great turning aircraft failed to live up to mission requirements. The F-4 was not a great dog fighter, I heard one F-4 pilot even called it a dog, indeed, it was not great at anything (except top speed). However it was good at many things to such an extent that it is just about on every ones list of great fighters. The F-84 was no worse an air to air fighter than all the straight wing jets of the day but it was a superb air to ground fighter and did great service in this role, thus not a flop.But how'd it compare in turning performance?
. Ruggedness often implies increased weight and the F-84 was rugged.
..
What did Winkle Brown think of both?
The technology was brand new and brought with it many frontiers with steep learning curves: compressor efficiency, turbine efficiency, combustion efficiency, high temperature metallurgy, lubrication, cooling, fuel metering management, etc. All the "rule of thumb" solutions that had evolved in advanced recip engines were of only limited applicability in these new blowtorches. A lot of engineering parameters that designers based their work on had to be recalculated again and again. Remember, in those days it was all laborious slide rule work, no Cray supercomputers to lean on.What caused the delay? A matter of simple technological progression, funding shrinking post war, or both?
So I guess if they can keep them down safely to a high enough air-speed, you're good to go.
That and bigger long range planes wouldn't fit/fly on carriers.Which the Navy had less trouble with because they could move the base into position to attack their target.
2. Regarding bomb-load: Were they still using 30 pound fragmentation bombs for antipersonnel use or larger stuff?
This has been answered by another board member, funding was only severely cut for end of 1945 and 1946,What caused the delay? A matter of simple technological progression, funding shrinking post war, or both?
Some of us feel like we are repeating ourselves also. Progress was so fast from 1946 on that a two year difference was almost a different era. As an example work started on a supersonic version of the Sabre (first flown in Oct 1947) in Feb 1949. This required not only a new (or heavily modified) airframe but new engines of much greater power. It lead eventually (two re-starts) to the F-100 which first flew in April of 1953 using an engine almost four times as powerful as the ones used in the early F-84s. In fact the preliminary studies back in 1949 had called for engines of at least double the power of the engines going into production F-84s. Yes this is extreme but you have to know what was going on behind the scenes too.That I'm well aware of, but when it comes to other fighters of the era (and I feel like I'm repeating myself), it didn't perform very good.
Not really that hard to find. And please consider that the Derwent 5 used in the Meteor gave 3600lbs thrust each but weighed only 1250lbs. just over 1/2 what a J-35 weighed.While I'm unsure how the Meteor F.4 through F.8 and the Vampire designs from 1946-1950 performed relative to the early F-80 and F-84, and
The attack planes (from the Curtiss Shrike on) not only carried double the number of guns as a "fighter" although none of the early attack planes ever swapped a .30 cal for a .50cal like the fighters could do they also often carried double the bomb load.Which reflects the desire for strafing-planes.
What it really needed was more thrust. The weight was necessary for ruggedness, and the reduced energy bleed in maneuvering due to more thrust would have helped out with the agility issue. Here's a dream to chew on; how about an F-84 with an afterburning RR Spey?
Cheers,
Wes
Probably true! But there is definitely such a thing as too little, and that's honestly way more dangerous...a statement applicable to every fighter.
1. How rugged was the F-80 compared to the F-84?Ruggedness often implies increased weight and the F-84 was rugged. It was indeed heavier than the F-80, slightly heavier than the F9F, equal to the F-86A, and much lighter than the F2H. I'm not sure weight was unreasonable.
But the ability to turn & climb well are extremely usefulTurning performance does not a great fighter make.
It could accelerate and climb quite well, as for turning performance: It was bad under most situations owing to a high corner-velocity. It could sustain 7g under those conditions however.The F-4 was not a great dog fighter, I heard one F-4 pilot even called it a dog, indeed, it was not great at anything (except top speed).
Just to be clear, I'm not disputing it's ability to move mud. I'm just pointing out that it could have been a way better fighter.it was a superb air to ground fighter and did great service in this role
So, at low altitudes it could turn tighter than the MiG-15? Was this due to the heavier control forces or something else?Obviously the F-84E could get outta trouble..
Honestly, I would not have envisioned lubrication as a major problem compared to pistons. Combustion efficiency, engine cooling, higher pressure-ratios seem to be something that would make sense, the effective of higher pressure ratios on turbines also makes sense as well. Scaling probably also makes sense.The technology was brand new and brought with it many frontiers with steep learning curves: compressor efficiency, turbine efficiency, combustion efficiency, high temperature metallurgy, lubrication, cooling, fuel metering management, etc. All the "rule of thumb" solutions that had evolved in advanced recip engines were of only limited applicability in these new blowtorches. A lot of engineering parameters that designers based their work on had to be recalculated again and again.
It could have used both truthfully...Zipper stated the F-84 could have used a little more agility and a lot less weight. No. What it really needed was more thrust.
The MiG-15 was pretty rugged, though it wasn't that heavy...The weight was necessary for ruggedness
Lubrication, like combustion efficiency, fuel metering, high temp metallurgy, turbine and compressor performance, were all technologies very highly refined for the demands of high horsepower reciprocating engines. The jet engine was a whole different animal.Honestly, I would not have envisioned lubrication as a major problem compared to pistons. Combustion efficiency, engine cooling, higher pressure-ratios seem to be something that would make sense, the effective of higher pressure ratios on turbines also makes sense as well. Scaling probably also makes sense.
2. The F2H and F9F were carrier based airplanes, both had more overall thrust than the F-84.
3. The F-86 had more thrust than the F-84 and a bigger wing
Interesting factoid. I had no idea it owed its lineage to the P-47.I'll start with the F-84 since who could possibly have an opinion about that one?
Personally, I'd say the F-84 was a flop for the following reasons
The fact that it had long-range made it useful as a bomber-escort in theory, but in practice, it left a bit to be desired against the MiG-15 (While the F-86 was inferior in a number of areas to the MiG-15, the F-86 was superior in several areas too giving it the ability to balance itself out), and as a result the bombers found themselves used at night.
- The F-84 was an interceptor (though the initial origins of the F-84 was a jet-powered P-47, the idea was ultimately done away with because the centrifugal flow engines of the time would not fit in the P-47's fuselage): The primary role of interceptors is to shoot-down bombers (though the ability to shoot down fighters at the time was assumed), and this was achieved with a rapid rate of climb, a rapid acceleration, a high top speed and altitude, and heavy armament (i.e. cannon); while range is desirable if you can get away with it, it's not the overarching goal.
- The wings were thicker than were probably prudent due to the desire to carry a large load of fuel: This thickness caused problems at transonic speeds (most all wings did to some extent, but as a rule, thinner was better than thick)
- Problems with the strength of the air-frame lead to increase in weight that resulted in a heavier than ideal wing-loading: It could not turn with the F-80, nor could it climb as well due to the weight
- The design was almost cancelled because it could not meet any of the requirements for which it was originally built
The air-to-ground capability was its saving grace, because of it's limited air-to-air capability. I should point out that the US Navy's F2H & F9F were both able to be used in air-to-ground missions, and were probably better designs overall (the F2H was also used as a nuclear strike plane, and it was more agile).
The F-84D/E and F9F-2 seem like they'd compare best with each other (not the F9F-5); the F2H-1 and F-84D/E would go better with each other.We need to quite arguing in the dark (no facts) and bring some light on the subject (facts).
Plane................wing area..............thrust...............empty weight...........combat weight.......L/F.......internal fuel
F-84B.................260sq ft.............3750lbs...................9538lb.......................13,465lbs...............7.33........416 gal
F2H-2.................294sq ft...........2 x 3250lbs...........11146lbs......................15,640lbs...............6.4.........877 gal *
F9F-5................. 250sq ft.............6250lbs................10147lbs......................15,359lbs.............7.25.......763 gal*
F-86F..................294sq ft..............5910lbs...............10850lbs......................14,857lbs..............7.33........435 gal
F-84E-25...........260sq ft..............4900lbs...............10300lbs.......................14,775lbs.............7.33........452 ga
Truecomparing early jets is difficult as they changed fairly quickly and some of the changes were major.
I thought as a general rule 50-60% fuel would be typical for combat missions, 80% for interceptions post war?2. The Navy planes are not not magic, they are NOT carrying full internal fuel at combat weights.
I'm surprised the USAF cancelled the penetration fighter designs. Those would have been way better off than the F-84.The F-84G was used as a long range escort for the SAC starting in 1952, mainly I suspect, because it was equipped for air to air refueling at the time and Sabre was not. Or the F-84 used the boom style refueling and the Sabre used probe and drogue?
It produced like 9200 lbf right?The GE J73 was being used as a replacement for the Wright J-65 (Bristol Siddeley Sapphire) used in the swept wing F-84F.
The GE 73 was the engine used in the F-86H.
The F-84D/E and F9F-2 seem like they'd compare best with each other (not the F9F-5); the F2H-1 and F-84D/E would go better with each other.
I thought as a general rule 50-60% fuel would be typical for combat missions, 80% for interceptions post war?
I'm surprised the USAF cancelled the penetration fighter designs. Those would have been way better off than the F-84.
It produced like 9200 lbf right?
CheckedThey would but I couldn't find SAC or CS sheets for those models. Many of these sheets can be found here : Standard Aircraft Characteristics Arcive
They're quite well set-up.I think they are as close to "official" or primary source as you are going to get.
True enough, but fuel would be burned off during the acceleration, climb, and outbound dash, maneuvering would also be involved in attacking fighters or bombers.This is not a good assumption, for wartime "intercept" missions most fighters would take-off with max internal fuel.
That I'm aware ofFor escort missions the take off was made on internal fuel and flight inbound on drop tanks, most times tanks were dropped when entering combat (and carried home if no combat) leaving the plane with a similar weight/fuel load as an interceptor near it's base.
Why not just use a pair of J47's? They are similar in weight to the J35, they produce more thrust, and have a better SFC.they were caught in a gamble. The engines didn't improve fast enough and they were either short of power or range. The XP-88 used a pair of 3150lb thrust engines for a 21,000lb airplane (clean) and while after burners were fitted that increased thrust by about 40% and gave good (for it's time) performance, use of the afterburners could double fuel consumption per minute of military power without after burner.