Finnish air force Mustang kills on Russian Front? (3 Viewers)

[drgondog]

To defend Leningrad ?

Fix, train, deploy in four days - a unique fighter that previously did not exist in USSR - rather than remove and study in detail?

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

According to Vladimir Kotelnikov, the Spitfires (LF IX) actually served in Leningrad's air defense (the 11th IAP and the 26th, 27th and 102nd Guards IAP). Furthermore, the 767th IAP flew "Spitfires" while defending Murmansk. But that were all air defense (PVO) units - almost all of the "Spitfires" received by the Soviets were used there.

Interesting. Do we know if these PVO Spitfires ever crossed paths with Finnish aircraft? I assume over Murmansk they might have seen some action against German aircraft flying out of Finland or Norway.

 

[bf109xxl]

Interesting. Do we know if these PVO Spitfires ever crossed paths with Finnish aircraft? I assume over Murmansk they might have seen some action against German aircraft flying out of Finland or Norway.

I doubt that Finnish pilots could have encountered these "Spitfires" - deployment mainly began in the summer of 1944. In the north, near Murmansk, "Spitfire" reconnaissance aircraft were operated, but it was mainly German pilots who encountered them.

 

[topspeed]

Yes Hans Wind claimed 2 Spits with Brewster and two with 109 G. I would not doubt any of this.

Overview of Variants in Soviet Service

• • Supermarine Spitfire Mk. Vb:
    • The USSR received about 143 second-hand Mk. Vb fighters starting in early 1943.
    • They suffered high losses due to friendly fire because their silhouette resembled the German Messerschmitt Bf 109.
    • Their narrow landing gear struggled with rough, unpaved frontline Soviet airstrips.
    • Consequently, they were pulled from frontline tactical combat after only a few months. [1, 2, 3]
  • Supermarine Spitfire Mk. IX (LF.IX / HF.IX):
    • From 1943 onward, the Soviets received roughly 1,100 to 1,200 Mk. IX variants.
    • While liked for their high-altitude performance, climb rate, and handling, they were slower at low altitudes than native Soviet fighters like the Lavochkin La-7.
    • They were shifted away from tactical front-line support and reassigned to the PVO (Soviet Air Defence Forces) to intercept high-flying German reconnaissance planes and bombers over major strategic hubs like Moscow, Leningrad, and the Northern Fleet regions. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
  • Reconnaissance and Trainer Variants:
    • Small numbers of PR.IV photo-reconnaissance variants were utilized (such as by the Northern Fleet's 118th ORAP).

 

[bf109xxl]

Yes Hans Wind claimed 2 Spits with Brewster and two with 109 G.

...but in fact they were all Yaks or LaGGs.

 

[topspeed]

...but in fact they were all Yaks or LaGGs.

I dont think any aircraft is as easy to recognize as a Spit.

There were plentyful.

 

[bf109xxl]

I dont think any aircraft is as easy to recognize as a Spit.

There were plentyful.

You've already been told that misidentifying the type of enemy aircraft in combat was quite common among pilots on all sides. It's easy to mistake a Spitfire for a Yak.

 

[Gilder]

Found this, an post war interview with one of the Finnish pilots involved, it seems the soviets did use their early P-51's for one short period in 1944.


.

The thing that caught my eye was that he was escorting Blenheim bombers in mid 1944. You have to take your hats off to the crews of those bombers.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

I doubt that Finnish pilots could have encountered these "Spitfires" - deployment mainly began in the summer of 1944. In the north, near Murmansk, "Spitfire" reconnaissance aircraft were operated, but it was mainly German pilots who encountered them.

Gotcha. I have 13 Finnish claims over Spitfires in my list, all of them by Squadron 24 Brewsters over the Gulf of Finland from 20 September 1942 to 14 April 1943, so those can safely be ruled out as not having been Spitfires based on the dates alone.

The original claims probably had more Spitfires, but Keskinen and Stenman have already corrected them where possible in the list mine is based on.



Incidentally, the Soviets also mistook some Finnish aircraft for Spitfires. These look to have in reality been Morane M.S.406s. E.g.:



By the way, here's the disposition of the FAF at different times in 1941-44:



The north was Luftflotte 5's, i.e. the Germans', domain. I'm fairly certain the FAF made no flights near Murmansk during the Continuation War, so any Spitfires there probably would've been encountered exclusively by the Germans.

Sources for the images, in order of appearance:

Kalevi Keskinen, Kari Stenman (2006): Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 26: Ilmavoitot, Aerial Victories, osa 1, 1st edition
Carl-Fredrik Geust (2020): Red Wings in the Winter War 1939-1940, 1st edition, digital appendices file, Appendix 12: RKKA VVS Victory claims in the Winter War
Ari Raunio (2004): Suomen sodat: Jatkosota 1941-1944 CD-ROM

 

[bf109xxl]

Interesting. Do we know if these PVO Spitfires ever crossed paths with Finnish aircraft? I assume over Murmansk they might have seen some action against German aircraft flying out of Finland or Norway.

Kotelnikov's data seemed insufficient to me, so I decided to consult book All of Stalin's Fighter Aviation Regiments by Anokhin and Bykov and discovered the following:

• The 26th GIAP received 8 Spitfire Vs in late June 1943, and from late June 1944 onward, it had only Yak-9s and Hurricanes. Spitfire IX arrived in February 1945
• The 27th GIAP received Spitfire IXs in June 1945
• The 102nd GIAP received Spitfire IXs in May 1945
• The 11th GIAP received Spitfire IXs in the spring of 1945.

All of the regiments listed belong to the Air Defense Forces (PVO).

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

Kotelnikov's data seemed insufficient to me, so I decided to consult book All of Stalin's Fighter Aviation Regiments by Anokhin and Bykov and discovered the following:

• The 26th GIAP received 8 Spitfire Vs in late June 1943, and from late June 1944 onward, it had only Yak-9s and Hurricanes. Spitfire IX arrived in February 1945
• The 27th GIAP received Spitfire IXs in June 1945
• The 102nd GIAP received Spitfire IXs in May 1945
• The 11th GIAP received Spitfire IXs in the spring of 1945.

All of the regiments listed belong to the Air Defense Forces (PVO).

Excellent info, thanks.

 

[topspeed]

You've already been told that misidentifying the type of enemy aircraft in combat was quite common among pilots on all sides. It's easy to mistake a Spitfire for a Yak.

How could that be possible as they don't at all the same.