drgondog
Major
Fix, train, deploy in four days - a unique fighter that previously did not exist in USSR - rather than remove and study in detail?
Finnish air force Mustang kills on Russian Front? (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter taly01
- Start date
FulmenTheFinn
Airman 1st Class
Interesting. Do we know if these PVO Spitfires ever crossed paths with Finnish aircraft? I assume over Murmansk they might have seen some action against German aircraft flying out of Finland or Norway.
I doubt that Finnish pilots could have encountered these "Spitfires" - deployment mainly began in the summer of 1944. In the north, near Murmansk, "Spitfire" reconnaissance aircraft were operated, but it was mainly German pilots who encountered them.
Yes Hans Wind claimed 2 Spits with Brewster and two with 109 G. I would not doubt any of this.
Overview of Variants in Soviet Service
Overview of Variants in Soviet Service
- Supermarine Spitfire Mk. Vb:
- The USSR received about 143 second-hand Mk. Vb fighters starting in early 1943.
- They suffered high losses due to friendly fire because their silhouette resembled the German Messerschmitt Bf 109.
- Their narrow landing gear struggled with rough, unpaved frontline Soviet airstrips.
- Consequently, they were pulled from frontline tactical combat after only a few months. [1, 2, 3]
- Supermarine Spitfire Mk. IX (LF.IX / HF.IX):
- From 1943 onward, the Soviets received roughly 1,100 to 1,200 Mk. IX variants.
- While liked for their high-altitude performance, climb rate, and handling, they were slower at low altitudes than native Soviet fighters like the Lavochkin La-7.
- They were shifted away from tactical front-line support and reassigned to the PVO (Soviet Air Defence Forces) to intercept high-flying German reconnaissance planes and bombers over major strategic hubs like Moscow, Leningrad, and the Northern Fleet regions. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
- Reconnaissance and Trainer Variants:
- Small numbers of PR.IV photo-reconnaissance variants were utilized (such as by the Northern Fleet's 118th ORAP).
- Supermarine Spitfire Mk. Vb:
...but in fact they were all Yaks or LaGGs.
You've already been told that misidentifying the type of enemy aircraft in combat was quite common among pilots on all sides. It's easy to mistake a Spitfire for a Yak.
The thing that caught my eye was that he was escorting Blenheim bombers in mid 1944. You have to take your hats off to the crews of those bombers.
FulmenTheFinn
Airman 1st Class
Gotcha. I have 13 Finnish claims over Spitfires in my list, all of them by Squadron 24 Brewsters over the Gulf of Finland from 20 September 1942 to 14 April 1943, so those can safely be ruled out as not having been Spitfires based on the dates alone.
The original claims probably had more Spitfires, but Keskinen and Stenman have already corrected them where possible in the list mine is based on.
Incidentally, the Soviets also mistook some Finnish aircraft for Spitfires. These look to have in reality been Morane M.S.406s. E.g.:
By the way, here's the disposition of the FAF at different times in 1941-44:
The north was Luftflotte 5's, i.e. the Germans', domain. I'm fairly certain the FAF made no flights near Murmansk during the Continuation War, so any Spitfires there probably would've been encountered exclusively by the Germans.
Sources for the images, in order of appearance:
Kalevi Keskinen, Kari Stenman (2006): Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 26: Ilmavoitot, Aerial Victories, osa 1, 1st edition
Carl-Fredrik Geust (2020): Red Wings in the Winter War 1939-1940, 1st edition, digital appendices file, Appendix 12: RKKA VVS Victory claims in the Winter War
Ari Raunio (2004): Suomen sodat: Jatkosota 1941-1944 CD-ROM
Kotelnikov's data seemed insufficient to me, so I decided to consult book All of Stalin's Fighter Aviation Regiments by Anokhin and Bykov and discovered the following:
- The 26th GIAP received 8 Spitfire Vs in late June 1943, and from late June 1944 onward, it had only Yak-9s and Hurricanes. Spitfire IX arrived in February 1945
- The 27th GIAP received Spitfire IXs in June 1945
- The 102nd GIAP received Spitfire IXs in May 1945
- The 11th GIAP received Spitfire IXs in the spring of 1945.
FulmenTheFinn
Airman 1st Class
Excellent info, thanks.
How could that be possible as they don't look at all the same.
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yulzari
Tech Sergeant
You might want to consider how the air war over Britain began with the Battle of Barking Creek.
Battle of Barking Creek - Wikipedia
I mean I don't understand at all why the highest scoring finnish officer ability see anything is even in question ?You might want to consider how the air war over Britain began with the Battle of Barking Creek.
Battle of Barking Creek - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
4 finnish scored Spitfires are well in line with the amount of Spits were in USSR...2%...finns score 2.5% of all scored by FAF.
Could this be politically inspired coup...or something ?
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,269
- Sep 30, 2021
From Ships-USSR
150 Spitfire Vb to Basra in October to December 1942.
201 Spitfire IX to Basra February to July 1944
864 Spitfire IX in Convoys JW.59 to 64 to North USSR August 1944 to May 1945
128 Spitfire IX in independent sailings to North USSR May and June 1945
1,336 Total, Empire Archer reported to have 23 mark IX on board, 22 traced, part of convoy JW.63, the list omits RK915 on Fort Island which was part of JW.62, however RK915 replaces SM455 which moves to Fort Highfield also part of JW.62. Changes give a total of 1,337.
Five Spitfire Vb damaged in transit and written off (NOT sent to India as per comment) from City of Lille, 1 more damaged in transit and written off from Palma, 1 returned to UK from Bandar Shahpour. Of the Spitfire Vb 92 were new, that is only reported at maintenance or ferry/packing units before export, of these 1 was returned to the UK and 1 damaged beyond repair in transit. Serials listed. The new aircraft had serials from EN911 except EN923, EN930 and EP165.
AIR 19/524
150 Spitfire exported October to December 1942
1,187 Spitfire exported February 1944 to June 1945
Copying a table direct from a spreadsheet did not work. Spitfire exports to USSR by month
14 in Oct-42
35 in Nov-42
101 in Dec-42
6 in Feb-44
34 in Mar-44
56 in Apr-44
62 in May-44
16 in Jun-44
51 in Jul-44
40 in Aug-44
50 in Sep-44
100 in Oct-44
85 in Nov-44
155 in Dec-44
99 in Jan-45
90 in Feb-45
22 in Mar-45
170 in Apr-45
30 in May-45
121 in Jun-45
1,337 Total
Air 22/310
Protocol deliveries Final position as at 30 June 1945
985 Spitfire IXE, 201 Spitfire IX, 1 Spitfire HF.IXE, total 1,187
Extra to protocol
150 Spitfire Vb Offered in October 1942, shipped to Basra and handed over
3 Spitfire PR.IV Handed over in North USSR October 1942
3 Spitfire PR.IV Handed over in North USSR June 1944
Total 1,337 fighter and 6 PR versions.
End of Month unless noted
4 February 1943, 63 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 87 en route
March 1943, 107 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 43 en route
14 April 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 59 being erected, 91 handed over.
28 May 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 7 being erected, 143 handed over.
17 June 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 149 handed over to USSR, 1 awaiting collection.
June 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb handed over to USSR
To reconcile this with the Airhistory listing would require the RAF to replace the 6 damaged beyond repair in transit and the 1 returned to UK.
February 1944, 6 Spitfire IX en route to Basra
March 1944, 40 Spitfire IX en route to Basra
April 1944, 56 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 36 arrived awaiting erection, 4 erected.
May 1944, 62 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 24 handed over, 66 arrived awaiting erection, 6 erected awaiting hand over.
June 1944, 94 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 36 handed over, 56 arrived awaiting erection, 4 erected awaiting hand over.
July 1944, 27 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 77 handed over, 93 arrived awaiting erection, 4 erected awaiting hand over. 24 Spitfire IXE in ships currently expected to sail in Convoy JW.59.
August 1944, Basra, 116 handed over, 76 arrived awaiting erection, 9 erected awaiting hand over. 64 Spitfire IXE in Convoy JW.59, sailed 15 August.
September 1944, Basra, 171 handed over, 23 arrived awaiting erection, 7 erected awaiting hand over. 64 Spitfire IXE in Convoy JW.59, 50 on JW.60 all arrived.
October 1944, Basra, 186 handed over, 13 arrived awaiting erection, 2 erected awaiting hand over. 214 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, including 100 in Convoy JW.61.
November 1944, Basra, 198 handed over, 1 arrived awaiting erection, 2 erected awaiting hand over. 214 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 85 en route in Convoy JW.62.
December 1944, Basra, 200 handed over, 1 arrived awaiting erection, 2 erected awaiting hand over. 299 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 155 en route in Convoy JW.63.
January 1945, Basra, 200 handed over, 1 erected awaiting hand over. 454 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 99 en route in Convoy JW.64.
February 1945, Basra, 200 handed over, 1 erected awaiting hand over. 553 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 111 IXE and 1 HF.IXE en route in Convoy JW.65
March 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 664 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR, 100 IXE en route in Convoy JW.66
April 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 764 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR
May 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 864 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR, implying 100 IXE in Convoy JW.67
June 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 985 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR, implying 121 IXE in Convoy JW.68
No further statements.
The Airhistory listing agrees with the JW convoy totals except 1 more on JW.62 and 1 less on JW.63 and lists JW.68 as independent sailings.
The lists in Air Arsenal North America add 2 Vb both considered new, but EP120 reported never left UK and is still in existence, EP788 sent to NW Africa, no further trace, reported as new and also ex Middle East. The book also reports 8 Vb sent were not delivered, replaced from RAF stocks. W3936, EP145, EP242, EP386 are not in the Air Arsenal North America mark V list. The mark IX list book total is 1,181 but has 1,176 serials.
150 Spitfire Vb to Basra in October to December 1942.
201 Spitfire IX to Basra February to July 1944
864 Spitfire IX in Convoys JW.59 to 64 to North USSR August 1944 to May 1945
128 Spitfire IX in independent sailings to North USSR May and June 1945
1,336 Total, Empire Archer reported to have 23 mark IX on board, 22 traced, part of convoy JW.63, the list omits RK915 on Fort Island which was part of JW.62, however RK915 replaces SM455 which moves to Fort Highfield also part of JW.62. Changes give a total of 1,337.
Five Spitfire Vb damaged in transit and written off (NOT sent to India as per comment) from City of Lille, 1 more damaged in transit and written off from Palma, 1 returned to UK from Bandar Shahpour. Of the Spitfire Vb 92 were new, that is only reported at maintenance or ferry/packing units before export, of these 1 was returned to the UK and 1 damaged beyond repair in transit. Serials listed. The new aircraft had serials from EN911 except EN923, EN930 and EP165.
AIR 19/524
150 Spitfire exported October to December 1942
1,187 Spitfire exported February 1944 to June 1945
Copying a table direct from a spreadsheet did not work. Spitfire exports to USSR by month
14 in Oct-42
35 in Nov-42
101 in Dec-42
6 in Feb-44
34 in Mar-44
56 in Apr-44
62 in May-44
16 in Jun-44
51 in Jul-44
40 in Aug-44
50 in Sep-44
100 in Oct-44
85 in Nov-44
155 in Dec-44
99 in Jan-45
90 in Feb-45
22 in Mar-45
170 in Apr-45
30 in May-45
121 in Jun-45
1,337 Total
Air 22/310
Protocol deliveries Final position as at 30 June 1945
985 Spitfire IXE, 201 Spitfire IX, 1 Spitfire HF.IXE, total 1,187
Extra to protocol
150 Spitfire Vb Offered in October 1942, shipped to Basra and handed over
3 Spitfire PR.IV Handed over in North USSR October 1942
3 Spitfire PR.IV Handed over in North USSR June 1944
Total 1,337 fighter and 6 PR versions.
End of Month unless noted
4 February 1943, 63 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 87 en route
March 1943, 107 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 43 en route
14 April 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 59 being erected, 91 handed over.
28 May 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 7 being erected, 143 handed over.
17 June 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb arrived Basra, 149 handed over to USSR, 1 awaiting collection.
June 1943, 150 Spitfire Vb handed over to USSR
To reconcile this with the Airhistory listing would require the RAF to replace the 6 damaged beyond repair in transit and the 1 returned to UK.
February 1944, 6 Spitfire IX en route to Basra
March 1944, 40 Spitfire IX en route to Basra
April 1944, 56 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 36 arrived awaiting erection, 4 erected.
May 1944, 62 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 24 handed over, 66 arrived awaiting erection, 6 erected awaiting hand over.
June 1944, 94 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 36 handed over, 56 arrived awaiting erection, 4 erected awaiting hand over.
July 1944, 27 Spitfire IX en route to Basra, 77 handed over, 93 arrived awaiting erection, 4 erected awaiting hand over. 24 Spitfire IXE in ships currently expected to sail in Convoy JW.59.
August 1944, Basra, 116 handed over, 76 arrived awaiting erection, 9 erected awaiting hand over. 64 Spitfire IXE in Convoy JW.59, sailed 15 August.
September 1944, Basra, 171 handed over, 23 arrived awaiting erection, 7 erected awaiting hand over. 64 Spitfire IXE in Convoy JW.59, 50 on JW.60 all arrived.
October 1944, Basra, 186 handed over, 13 arrived awaiting erection, 2 erected awaiting hand over. 214 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, including 100 in Convoy JW.61.
November 1944, Basra, 198 handed over, 1 arrived awaiting erection, 2 erected awaiting hand over. 214 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 85 en route in Convoy JW.62.
December 1944, Basra, 200 handed over, 1 arrived awaiting erection, 2 erected awaiting hand over. 299 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 155 en route in Convoy JW.63.
January 1945, Basra, 200 handed over, 1 erected awaiting hand over. 454 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 99 en route in Convoy JW.64.
February 1945, Basra, 200 handed over, 1 erected awaiting hand over. 553 Spitfire IXE arrivals in North USSR, 111 IXE and 1 HF.IXE en route in Convoy JW.65
March 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 664 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR, 100 IXE en route in Convoy JW.66
April 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 764 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR
May 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 864 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR, implying 100 IXE in Convoy JW.67
June 1945, Basra, 201 handed over. 985 Spitfire IXE and 1 HF.IXE arrivals in North USSR, implying 121 IXE in Convoy JW.68
No further statements.
The Airhistory listing agrees with the JW convoy totals except 1 more on JW.62 and 1 less on JW.63 and lists JW.68 as independent sailings.
The lists in Air Arsenal North America add 2 Vb both considered new, but EP120 reported never left UK and is still in existence, EP788 sent to NW Africa, no further trace, reported as new and also ex Middle East. The book also reports 8 Vb sent were not delivered, replaced from RAF stocks. W3936, EP145, EP242, EP386 are not in the Air Arsenal North America mark V list. The mark IX list book total is 1,181 but has 1,176 serials.
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HP52
Airman
My Dad was posted to Vaenga, Kola Inlet as part of 455 Squadron RAAF to deploy and provide Air cover for the arrival of Convoy PQ18. There was little action and the aircrews were recovered to UK on the USS Tuscaloosa. My Dad's troops were left behind at Vaenga to complete technical maintenance training and hitch-hiked back to UK aboard HMS Intrepid and manned an Oerlikon. Their Hampdens were gifted to the Russians and survived for a year, before the species went extinct.
Both Spitfire V and IX were in Leningrad:
Hans Wind score two in 1943....as did Gunther Rall.
Captain Hans Wind's Lectures On Fighter Tactics
Quite interesting read (especially for lw pilots) and lots of useful info about tactics against russian planes. Hans Wind was Finnish fighter ace with 75 confirmed victories. http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html Quote from article: Enemy fighting me...
forum.il2sturmovik.com
Finnish fighter ace Hans Wind scored 39 of his 75 confirmed aerial victories flying the American-built Brewster B-239 Buffalo (known simply as the "Brewster" in Finland), which included victories over Soviet-operated British and Soviet aircraft types. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Hans Wind and the Brewster
- Total Career Kills: 75 confirmed victories across 302 combat sorties. [1]
- Brewster Kills: 39 victories (with some sources citing 33.5 to 39 individual and shared credits in the type during his time with LeLv 24). [1, 2, 3]
- Tactics: Wind was famous for an aggressive, highly disciplined style, often waiting until he was within 50 meters of an enemy aircraft before opening fire to ensure maximum accuracy. [1]
Encounters with British Types
While the vast majority of Finnish Brewster victories were against Soviet aircraft (such as the Polikarpov I-153, I-16, and various modern Yaks and LaGGs), the Soviet Air Force also operated Lend-Lease Western aircraft, including British-supplied Hawker Hurricanes and Supermarine Spitfires. Finnish ace records and historical overviews note that Wind's impressive tally in the nimble export Buffalo included engagements against these Lend-Lease fighters when Soviet forces deployed them on the northern fronts. [1, 2, 3]
--
But how could Kyösti Karhila have shot 2 Mustangs in same area...I cannot tell.
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Yes, there were. But on April 14, 1943, there were no Spitfires near Leningrad. Wind definitely didn't shoot down any "Spitfires," and it's not certain that he shot down anyone at all that day. Either you're not reading your opponents' responses carefully, or you're not reading them at all - I pointed out that Kotelnikov's data (from the article you're citing, even though I referred to a later book of his) is insufficient, and that there is more detailed data available.
"Confirmed" != "verified". The Soviets acknowledge only the loss of a single I-153 on April 14, 1943 - it was damaged in a dogfight, then came under friendly fire, and finally crashed while landing in fog after its wheel caught on a mound. Air fights involving Soviet fighters have been documented - these included the I-153, I-16, La-5, LaGG-3, and Yak-1. Wind's claims are not confirmed by Soviet documents.
Just like Wind - that is, he didn't shoot down any "Mustangs" by misidentifying the type of aircraft.
According to Soviet documents, on July 4, 1944, two Yak-9s (one of which was shot down by anti-aircraft artillery; the pilot was rescued) and two Il-2s were lost. On July 7, 1944, one Yak-9 and two Il-2s were lost. It appears that the Yak-9 served as the Mustang.
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Ok...I can agree on this.
