First jet bomber with jet fighter escort?

[F-16]

It's very possible that a painting such as this, was configured in that way at the behest of the marketing company.
Just a few days ago, I had a discussion with a friend concerning a painting by a very well-known and competent aviation artist, who's work is normally very, very accurate. In this particular instance, there were one or two glaring inaccuracies, so my friend contacted the artist. It turned out he was requested to portray the particular scene as it appeared by the company who publish and market prints of his paintings !

Good point, artists can make it different as requested. So the Germans invented the 1st jet fighter as well as the 1st jet bomber @ the end of the war? What if they produced them 2 yrs. before the end of the war in big quantity. S: What was the average K-D ratio of the Komet?

 

[Airframes]

Not quite 'first invented', but first into operational service.

 

[F-16]

Not quite 'first invented', but first into operational service.

The black Me-292 (nightfighter) looks very mean.

 

[pattern14]

Rather an amazing coincidence, but just this morning I spotted a magazine in the local news agent ("Flypast') that has a special edition on first generation jets. There is an excerpt saying that the Ar234 b WAS escorted by Me 262's on the Remagen mission, so I'm going back in this afternoon to buy a copy. Here's hoping they have referencing to back it up. And yes, some Ar234's had tail guns, but they were removed. Forward firing armament was fitted to some night fighters, but was not considered practical due to the extensive nose glazing. The He 219 was better suited in this role.

 

[parsifal]

Any mission undertaken over enemy territory carries with it a risk the aircraft would be forced or shot down and captured. Given that the AR 234B was, for all intents and purposes an in-interceptable aircraft, the Germans would not have risked exposing the 262's secrets uneccessaily.

Remagen was a different matter altogether. It was the same scenario as the Bridgees at Sedan in 1940, where the destruction of the Bridge was absolutely critical. Connsequently the Germans were prepred to risk a lot to destroy Remagen Bridge.

Also by late 44, the Germans simply could not afford the fuel or the pilots or the aircraft to swan around providing escort for aircraft that didnt need it.

Maybe the Germans were dumb enouigh to provide such escort, but I doubt it

 

[pattern14]

Any mission undertaken over enemy territory carries with it a risk the aircraft would be forced or shot down and captured. Given that the AR 234B was, for all intents and purposes an in-interceptable aircraft, the Germans would not have risked exposing the 262's secrets uneccessaily.

Remagen was a different matter altogether. It was the same scenario as the Bridgees at Sedan in 1940, where the destruction of the Bridge was absolutely critical. Connsequently the Germans were prepred to risk a lot to destroy Remagen Bridge.

Also by late 44, the Germans simply could not afford the fuel or the pilots or the aircraft to swan around providing escort for aircraft that didnt need it.

Maybe the Germans were dumb enouigh to provide such escort, but I doubt it

A number of AR234's were shot down during the Remagen raids, usually while holding course on their bombing runs. According to the reliable texts I've managed to now find, Me 262's actually did fly escort, but primarily in a flak suppression role. It is a pretty big myth (once again....) that the Arado was un-interceptable, and did not require an escort under these conditions. It appears it was the first time that mixed jet types were used

 

[parsifal]

Can you reference or post your evidence so we can have a look at it?

 

[pattern14]

Can you reference or post your evidence so we can have a look at it?

No problem; I was only interested in factual evidence myself, so give me a couple of hours to get the facts in order from the texts. I've been looking in the wrong spots for a while, and trying to wade through the semi truths that abound.

 

[pattern14]

I found this information from "Me 262 Volume 3" by Smith and Creek, From Ian Allen publishing, Classic publications, U.K, 2000. Pages 592-613. The 4 volume series is recognised as the most comprehensive work on the Me 262 to date. And here I was looking for info in my Ar234 books......Anyway, first mention is made on page 592 where, on 02 march 1945, 26 Me 262's from II./KG51 and 22 AR234's from III.KG76 mounted ground attacks on allied troops and tanks in the Duren area. Interesting sidenote was that they were intercepted by P47's from the 365th Fighter group, but no losses were inflicted. It was stated that a Lt Robert Rollo of the 386 Squadron reported that "....it was like rhinos chasing gazelles" . Next mention was on page 595, when on 07 march, 8 AR234's from KG 76 escorted by 30 Me 262's from II./KG51, mounted the first bombing raid on the Ludendorff rail bridge at Remagen. There is a very interesting eye witness report from a member of the US 372nd Field artillery unit who was present on march 11th, who describes the "suicidal" Jet attacks taking place every 5 minutes. He describes the total ineffectiveness of the P38 patrol attempting to stop them, and the fact that the AA fire was at least 1/4 of a mile behind the fast diving jets. No point in going much further, as it appears I just answered my own question!!!

 

[awack]

Wow Pattern14 that's very interesting, I wish I had those books.

 

[mhuxt]

USAAF recon Mossies often were escorted by P-51s.

RAF recce Mossies were also escorted by USAAF fighters on sorties into Austria and southern Germany - Me 262 country.

Some of the escort missions were undertaken by the Tuskegee Airmen. There's a pdf "out there" which details their missions day-by-day, Mosquito escort was a regular duty.

Ironically, one of the only two RAF recce Mossie squads in the area was 60 SAAF - the U.K. National Archives made their ORBs available on the net a while ago, have not got round to it yet but at some point I will try to find proof that black American airmen escorted white South African airmen.

 

[pattern14]

I managed to find some more references to this topic, but for now, it appears that the two jet types did operate together, both as complimentary or as a support. As the first operational jet bomber, the Arado Ar 234 is usually over shadowed by the Me262, and even the He 162 and Komet for that matter. It deserves far more recognition than it got.

 

[CobberKane]

There is at least one account of these missions from a Mossie pilot floating around on the net. A point that emerged was the the P-51s had all sorts of problems matching the mossies high cruise speed. The Mosquito was intercepted by a ME262, with the 51s unable to intervene, but managed to avoid all attacks. The Mossie crew were very complementary of the 262 pilots skill, stating it was the only thing that prevented a collision during the dogfight.

 

[Denniss]

II./KG 51 flew the Me 262 A-2 which is the dedicated Fighter-Bomber variant of the Me 262 A-1 so they most likely flew bombing missions as well.

 

[pattern14]

II./KG 51 flew the Me 262 A-2 which is the dedicated Fighter-Bomber variant of the Me 262 A-1 so they most likely flew bombing missions as well.

According to the records that is correct. They attacked numerous ground targets in the final few months of the war, although they were not as well suited in this role as the Ar234.