Flak suppression

[MacArther]

Flak suppression was developed as an artform by Wild Weasel Thud drivers dueling Radar and Sam Sites during Vietnam - but the goal was not to mangle the 23, 37, 67 and 85mm artillary in the rings surrounding the Fan Song sites - it was to kill the gunners and kill the radar site and guided Sam II's. Their load was CBU-24 cluster bobms, 20mm and Shrike missles plus Mk118 and/or M117 iron bombs

Wow, my books are stupid. All they list for the Thuds being used in that role are anti-radar missiles and various countermeasure devices.

On a topic related note, one would think that the best sort of plane for flack suppression would have nose guns for better spray on the way in to the target. Also, being able to carry significant amounts of para-frags, napalm, or bombs would also be a must.

 

[drgondog]

Wow, my books are stupid. All they list for the Thuds being used in that role are anti-radar missiles and various countermeasure devices.

On a topic related note, one would think that the best sort of plane for flack suppression would have nose guns for better spray on the way in to the target. Also, being able to carry significant amounts of para-frags, napalm, or bombs would also be a must.

Yep - the weasels were in first and out last and dodging Sams and radar guided AAA the whole time. They were on a viariety of scopes and sigint and plying cat and mouse with the BARLOCK and Fan Song - all in all the NVA Fan Song operators were VERY wary and respectful of Weasels.. the 'unwary' passed on to a greater reward in a cloud of fertilizer and flame.

The MK 118 was used when Billy Sparks and Carlo Lombardi destroyed the BARLOCK off a mountain side in '67 but he carried two CBU-24s and two Shrike anti radiation missles along the the centerline 650 gallon fuel tank as 'the norm'- which was also occasionally 'jettisoned' when everything else was expended.

 

[wuzak]

I think it would be easier to replace the guns, than the trained gunners.

Of course it's much better if you can destroy both, but I think you'd need some pretty heavy and accurate bombs to destroy heavy flak guns.

Replacingthe guns means either moving it from somewhere else, or manufacturing a new one which takes resources from womewhere else.

One of the effcets of the RAF city bombing campaign was to force the LW to deploy more flak positions around the country, and thus more had to be made, more shells had to be made and teh resources had to be diverted from somewhere. Tank manufacture, perhaps?

 

[Ascent]

I'm just reading a book about Costal Command Mosquitoes flying out of Banff against shipping off Norway and it mentions that some aircraft were specifically assigned to flak suppression duties. It seems that it was mostly MG and cannon but I don't think they were averse to putting rockets into flakships, understandably.

As for the MK XVIII I think the ammo used in the 57mm was AP for anti shipping so would be of limited use in flak suppression unless you scored a direct hit. It does mention that some fired it in air to air combat though I don't think any actually hit.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm just reading a book about Costal Command Mosquitoes flying out of Banff against shipping off Norway and it mentions that some aircraft were specifically assigned to flak suppression duties. It seems that it was mostly MG and cannon but I don't think they were averse to putting rockets into flakships, understandably.

As for the MK XVIII I think the ammo used in the 57mm was AP for anti shipping so would be of limited use in flak suppression unless you scored a direct hit. It does mention that some fired it in air to air combat though I don't think any actually hit.

Banff Strike Wing Mk XVIII Mosquitos made at least two kills with their 57 mm Molins guns: a Ju-88 and a FW-190A. The FW-190A is confirmed in Luftwaffe records as an A-3. The Ju-88 is reported as taking three or four hits and folding up before hitting the ground.

 

[PJay]

I remember reading about the Strike Wings, circling the target ships encouraging the enemy to fire then attacking when the gunners had to change ammo drums.
I still don't know whether or not to believe that.

 

[drgondog]

I remember reading about the Strike Wings, circling the target ships encouraging the enemy to fire then attacking when the gunners had to change ammo drums.
I still don't know whether or not to believe that.

Takes far longer to roll in and shoot than it does to change ammo drums - not to mention giving gunners a lot of time to make lead adjustments on circling aircraft (large aircraft) flying slower in turns than they would be on a diving strafing run.

I wouldn't believe it.

 

[tyrodtom]

What's the chances of more than one gunner changing drums at the same time ? And how would the aircraft know they're changing them ? I just can't imagine the pilots flying with the stick in one hand, and trying to keep a pair of binoculars on the gunsites with the other hand. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[Shortround6]

Drums?
German AA guns, at least the most common ones, didn't use drums. The Allied 20mm guns did. Granted the air crews may not have gotten close enough to see the difference in WW II.
I don't think I could tell the difference between a drum and a box magazine at several hundred yards while doing 250-350mph AND being shot at

Some pilots (servicemen) recollections are the truth, some are the best that they remember, and some are great bar stories or "in jokes" that only people who are in the "know" would get.

 

[PJay]

I don't know enough about Sperrbrecher weapon fits to discuss this. I wish I'd bought the 'Strike Wings' book from the library when they raped the stock recently.
Agreed it sounds kinda wrong.

 

[Juha]

Drums?
German AA guns, at least the most common ones, didn't use drums. The Allied 20mm guns did. Granted the air crews may not have gotten close enough to see the difference in WW II.
I don't think I could tell the difference between a drum and a box magazine at several hundred yards while doing 250-350mph AND being shot at

Some pilots (servicemen) recollections are the truth, some are the best that they remember, and some are great bar stories or "in jokes" that only people who are in the "know" would get.

I don't believe it either but Strike wing a/c were two seaters, so the navigator could use the binoculars but almost all German ships and escort vessels had more than one light AA gun. It is difficult to believe that all of them needed magazine change at the same time. Of course some early R-boats had only 2 20mm cannon so if attacking very low level the plane could be shielded by boat's superstructure from the fire of one of the cannon. But as drgondog wrote, one chaged the magazine faster than one could initiate the attack run. Also there were most of the time several vessels around giving mutual support and escort vessels were nimble enough to open the arch of the wooded cannon by turning before the attacking plane got into firing range.

Juha

 

[Kryten]

desmond scott says exactly the same tactic was used by typhoon squadrons attacking e-boats in the channel 43-44, he led several operations and this was the tactic he used apparently!

 

[Siegfried]

I remember reading about the Strike Wings, circling the target ships encouraging the enemy to fire then attacking when the gunners had to change ammo drums.
I still don't know whether or not to believe that.

It's not believable. A quad 20mm FLAK C/38 2.0cm gun had 4 barrels. Only 2 diagonally opposite barrels were fired at any one time while the other two were being reloaded with 40 (not 20) round clips. This means a flak vierling could more or less fire continiously. Having 60 round snail drums only makes the magazines more cumbersome to handle.

The 3.7cm guns were loaded by clip magazine, with 10 rounds going in at a time and stackable on top of each other. This arrangment is what made the 40mm boffors so effective.

Smaller single 20mm guns did have to stop for a magazine reload but this only took a few seconds and such guns were backups.

One of the early German naval 3.7cm guns fired individual rouns with a semi-automatic breach (drawng in an ejecting automatically) each gun could comfortably fire 30rom and pair could sustain 60 rpm.

 

[mhuxt]

Flak suppression?

Here's how:

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll8/id/2806/filename/2786.PDF

 

[Shortround6]

mhuxt, thank you.

 

[mhuxt]

mhuxt, thank you.

No worries, that's a good site, worth a browse.

 

[PJay]

Excellent! Ta.