Flight Sims are they really as real as actually flying?

syscom3 · Oct 29, 2005

An airplanes performance in the air is just a set of equations. For simulators, it can be made as accurate as the S/W writer wants it to be.

Of course theres always the problem of needing more and more CPU performance to simulate that last 1% of accuracy that really doesnt effect the fidelity of the aircraft simulation.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2005

syscom3 said:
The planes performance in the air is just a set of equations. It can be made as accurate as the S/W writer wants it to be.

Of course theres always the problem of needing more and more CPU performance to simulate that last 1% of accuracy that really doesnt effect the fidelity of the aircraft simulation.

You forgot one thing - the environmental aspects; The feel of the aircraft, the smells, temperature, G loading, all are part of the equation - and those equations you speak about are not finite - they change with temperature, density altitude etc., I know all programmable, but still not the real thing.

PC sims, no matter how good they are give a basis, they are excellent if you're flying "by numbers" or you're doing instrument training but unless you're in a real full motion sim (and even those have limitations) you're never going to grasp or understand the real feel of an aircraft unless you fly the real thing - and I could prove that by the amount of puke bags I had to give to some of my students who were heavy "PC Sim drivers."

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2005

FLYBOYJ said:
the first time I put em in a stall they Sh*t....

I know I did.

syscom3 said:
An airplanes performance in the air is just a set of equations. For simulators, it can be made as accurate as the S/W writer wants it to be.

Of course theres always the problem of needing more and more CPU performance to simulate that last 1% of accuracy that really doesnt effect the fidelity of the aircraft simulation.

And you still will never get the real thing. Sorry arm chair pilot its not the same, I know you all like to think it is and proudly walk around with your microsoft liscense and your microsoft wings but it is not the same. Get out and fly a real plane. Its better and more "real".

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
FLYBOYJ said:

the first time I put em in a stall they Sh*t....

Click to expand...

I know I did.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
And you still will never get the real thing. Sorry arm chair pilot its not the same, I know you all like to think it is and proudly walk around with your microsoft liscense and your microsoft wings but it is not the same.

It's like screwing a blow up doll! GOD DID I JUST SAY THAT?!?! I mean like, I wouldn't know about those things!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2005

LOL that is just too funny. I have a bad mental image though now. I am scared for life, my wife will be sueing you!

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
LOL that is just too funny. I have a bad mental image though now.

Me too!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2005

Now thats bad, when you get an image of yourself!

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Now thats bad, when you get an image of yourself!

Yea! (think good toughts,think good toughts,think good toughts,think good toughts

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2005

I cant think good thoughts.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2005

I'm trying!

syscom3 · Oct 29, 2005

Anthing the plane does in the air can be modeled into the SW.

However, even if a pilot is puking and sweating and going blind from a hard gee turn, it still irrelevant to what the airplanes "state" is. It doesnt care about the pilot, only what position the flight controls are in.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2005

syscom3 said:
Anthing the plane does in the air can be modeled into the SW.

However, even if a pilot is puking and sweating and going blind from a hard gee turn, it still irrelevant to what the airplanes "state" is. It doesnt care about the pilot, only what position the flight controls are in.

But who puts it in that position? A pilot! And some of those positions you may casually simulate with your little joy stick while sitting at the PC enjoying a Coke will result in sweat, puke, unconsciousness or even worse when done in the real vehicle, but the main point here is sometimes due to the physical state of the pilot because of previous maneuvers, they can't even accomplish the most basic maneuvers proficiently like so many die-hard PC sim drivers will do continually as they snack on a Snickers bar. Like the commercial goes, "There's nothing like the real thing." Although the sim may paint a very realistic picture of a situation, that picture is painted in what I call "Perfect World," and with that it's you'll never totaly evaluate the real world unless you're there...

Don't kid yourself on sims, you could be the best PC sim pilot in the world, you go fly a real airplane without real time training you'll probably sweat, puke, and sh*t before you role the thing into a big aluminum ball!

syscom3 · Oct 29, 2005

Like I said, an airplane in flight is nothing but a set of equations that can be modeled for any accuracy an end user desires. An airplane doesnt care if a pilot is uncomfortable, scared or dead. All that matters is the position of the controls.

You can take any simulation to the nth degree for accuracy. But for most PC sims, being 95% accurate is acceptable for most people.

Just by flying around on a sim can give you a pretty good idea of what the plane is capable of. Its only when you get to the extremes of its flying envelope is when questions arise on how closely the software follows the real thing.

Just as the old saying about racing goes...."how much money you have tells me how fast you will go" also applies to simulators. More money = better software modeling = more accurate simulation.

By the way, I dont pretend I could fly a WW2 airplane, except straight and level and maybe gentle turns.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2005

syscom3 said:
Like I said, an airplane in flight is nothing but a set of equations that can be modeled for any accuracy an end user desires. An airplane doesnt care if a pilot is uncomfortable, scared or dead. All that matters is the position of the controls.

And you'll never get a full perspective of what the aircraft can and can't do

syscom3 said:
You can take any simulation to the nth degree for accuracy. But for most PC sims, being 95% accurate is acceptable for most people.

If you want to get a simple picture of operation - you'll never get a full perspective of real world perfomance becuase that still involves many variables that will result in a 25% degradation based on the 5% you mention.

syscom3 said:
Just by flying around on a sim can give you a pretty good idea of what the plane is capable of. Its only when you get to the extremes of its flying envelope is when questions arise on how closely the software follows the real thing.

Now there I agree and that's what I make my above statements on...

syscom3 said:
Just as the old saying about racing goes...."how much money you have tells me how fast you will go" also applies to simulators. More money = better software modeling = more accurate simulation.

Agree -

syscom3 said:
By the way, I dont pretend I could fly a WW2 airplane, except straight and level and maybe gentle turns.

That's a good thing!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2005

syscom3 said:
Like I said, an airplane in flight is nothing but a set of equations that can be modeled for any accuracy an end user desires. An airplane doesnt care if a pilot is uncomfortable, scared or dead. All that matters is the position of the controls.

You can take any simulation to the nth degree for accuracy. But for most PC sims, being 95% accurate is acceptable for most people.

Just by flying around on a sim can give you a pretty good idea of what the plane is capable of. Its only when you get to the extremes of its flying envelope is when questions arise on how closely the software follows the real thing.

Just as the old saying about racing goes...."how much money you have tells me how fast you will go" also applies to simulators. More money = better software modeling = more accurate simulation.

By the way, I dont pretend I could fly a WW2 airplane, except straight and level and maybe gentle turns.

And still is nothing like the real thing. A simulation is a simulation and flying is flying. Sorry not the same my friend.

evangilder · Oct 29, 2005

We have had this debate before. Sims do not give the feel of flying. I don't care what anyone says, I have flown sims and the real thing. They are different, plain and simple. You don't feel a descent in a sim, you don't have the freedom to move your head around to see what is around you. A sim will not allow you to feel the heaviness of the controls. Fly an SNJ in a sim and an AN-2 Colt in a sim, the stick forces are exactly the same. The response to stick inputs should be correct if the sim is good, but it definitely feels different in real life.

You also don't get certain sounds and smells. How do you trim the engines out in a twin? You listen and hear the vibration become one, like tuning a guitar. In almost every airplane I have flown in, during warm up, you can tell when it is done as you can actually smell the oil get warm.

There are nuances to flying that sims just don't get. I don't give a damn how good they are, there is nothing like the real thing. In a sim, you are much more willing to push the envelope because if you screw up and get into a bad spot, you just restart the game. I can guarantee that unless you have a death wish, you won;t push it like that in the real world.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2005

Said very well evan but as you know these "Arm Chair Pilots" will not believe you. They are flying....

syscom3 · Oct 29, 2005

If I had a billion dollars, Id make a flight simultor that provided lots of noises, vibrations and could freeze or bake me. Id even build a cockpit that faithfully reproduces the plane I am "flying".

Id also have multiple hi res monitors driven by super computers to give me something neat to look at.

And while Im at it, I'd have another supercomputer simulate the physics of the aircraft so its 99.9999999999% accurate.

That way, I can have a fun simulation experience without actually getting killed. Of course some people will argue that its still .001 mph inaccurate, but then of course, all the manufacturing tolerances inherint in the real thing would fall within the margin of error.

evangilder · Oct 29, 2005

With a billion dollars, you could hire the best CFI and buy some really cool planes and do the real thing.

The point is, sims will not give you everything. It's like the difference between sex and masturbation. Masturbation is fun and you get your rocks off, but it's nothing like the real thing.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2005

LOL that is one way to put it evan!

Flight Sims are they really as real as actually flying?

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