Following Iraq's bioweapons trail

[Civettone]

You are back peddeling.....You said to Chris "So now you're also a scientist and expert on WMDs?"

That is sarcasim and rude, don't think your little changing of the words can get you out of it. Just say sorry without making excuses or changing what you said. Then get back on the subject.

What? So the word 'also' is what makes it an insult?

Please explain how I am not impartial on this subject.

You agree with Chris on the war in Iraq and WMDs. As such you'll be more perceptive to criticism on him than you would be on me, as you clearly didn't notice some of the accusation I've had to take this last days.
Now I'm ok with all of that, and no one is unbiased, just pointing out that I don't see it the way you do.

I am trying to help before you go to far and start a huge war with Chris (which you would not win).

You were the one who started talking about a war between Chris and I. I was shocked when I read it.
Adler and I have had several heated discussions before, so I fail to see what is so different about this one. And if Chris has a problem with my post, he should say so in his role as moderator. Or another moderator should step in. Hunter, I like you but you're not a mod.

And now I would like to go on with the discussion.
Kris

 

[Njaco]

Can someone please enlighten me and tell me how many years of schooling, college, tech school and such that I would need to recognize a bomb?

 

[Matt308]

28 years

 

[Civettone]

They call in experts to identify WMDs. That makes me conclude that you need to be an expert to identify WMDs.
Njaco, you may very well be an expert. I don't know as I don't know a single thing about you. I know Chris is a military helicopter pilot, and I bet a damn good one too.

And again, he didn't mention he flew in experts. Had I had known this, I wouldn't have made the comment. He said he saw it with his own eyes.
Kris

 

[mkloby]

Matt's sarcasm brings mad flava(I sincerely apologize for that) to the forum. I misunderstood him at first too.

no one is unbiased

Now that's the kind of stuff I like to hear!

Civettone brings up a good question - if NBCs were found in Iraq, then why is are official gov't reports stating the opposite. I honestly have legitimate answer to this. However, "facts" released to the public are different from what is not released...

Adler's experience is not isolated, nor is he incorrect in what he saw. Obviously I was not there, but his story is not uncommon. The Army has NBC guys attached to every unit that deal with these threats. Now, it goes without saying that NBCs found in Iraq were substantially less than the US gov't expected to find. However, that is not the same as meaning that they did not exist. With scatterings as such found, it seems intuitive to believe that there are MANY that have not been found. You would not develop a sparse sprinkling of token NBCs, that just does not make sense in reality... at least not to me. I'd be like the USMC procuring 1 and a half Ospreys...

Chris was a Crew Chief - don't insult him by calling him a nasty pilot.

 

[Njaco]

I am a nobody. I have never served. I have never been to college. I have never held elected office, nor written a book (yet).

But I do have an opinion.

An opinion based upon what I read, see, hear and occasionally I throw in common sense. I'm new to this board but I have read the previous posts by many here, I see their photos in places I pray they are able to safely leave from. I wish I had the knowledge they have. And I'm glad that they choose to share with the rest of us.

But that doesn't mean I am one sided. An earlier post by me on Global Warming you questioned about sources and I have to admit I was wrong although I found some things close to what I was trying to say. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I do trust my common sense.

Experts to find WMDs? My common sense says that if I was in the military, stationed in a sensitive area, a dangerous area, they military will make damn sure I know what I'm doing and what I'm looking at. Some things don't take a scientist to figure out. Its called not finding the forest cause ther's too many trees.

 

[Njaco]

I also get alittle pissy at times

 

[Matt308]

I'll agree with that Jersey logic.

 

[Civettone]

Why were these either hidden for Iraq Survey Group or why did the Iraq Survey Group not mention them, even though it's in their best interest to make them public?

If Chris would tell us which site he's talking about, perhaps we (or he) can take a quick peek at the Survey Report and see it being mentioned there. Perhaps that will clarify things.

Since the 2003 invasion of Iraq, several reported finds of chemical weapons were announced. During the invasion itself, there were half a dozen incidents in which the US military announced that it had found chemical weapons. All of these claims were based on field reports, and were later retracted. Another such post-war case occurred on January 9, 2004, when Icelandic munitions experts and Danish military engineers discovered 36 120-mm mortar rounds containing liquid buried in Southern Iraq. While initial tests suggested that the rounds contained a blister agent, a chemical weapon banned by the Geneva Convention, subsequent analysis by American and Danish experts showed that no chemical agent was present.
(as reported by the Danish military)

Chris was a Crew Chief - don't insult him by calling him a nasty pilot.

Damn! I just keep on getting myself deeper and deeper in trouble! Now my a$$ is getting banned for sure!!

Kris

 

[Civettone]

Experts to find WMDs? My common sense says that if I was in the military, stationed in a sensitive area, a dangerous area, they military will make damn sure I know what I'm doing and what I'm looking at. Some things don't take a scientist to figure out. Its called not finding the forest cause ther's too many trees.

Njaco, I don't think you're nobody. You're as smart or as dumb as any of us here. Nobody knows it all. We can just hope that if we stick out heads together we'll get a step closer to the truth.

As to the experts, my last example shows how much work goes into it identifying the chemicals and to see if they are still active. Not only was it tested by an British-Danish team, it was subsequently tested by members of the US-led Iraq Survey Group, after which one shell was sent to the US Department of Energy's National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory in Idaho before reaching a definite conclusion.

So apparently it's not that easy...
Kris

 

[Njaco]

Hell I'm probably dumber than most

But the one thing that I believe you should realize. Even on this board the members must be sensitive about what they can and cannot divulge. To turn it around even the gov. might be using the same rule for itself and giving dis-information as to what is NOT found.

Why were these either hidden for Iraq Survey Group or why did the Iraq Survey Group not mention them, even though it's in their best interest to make them public?

I really don't know and I can only guess. See this that I found and you might be able to understand why the military doesn't want to let on they found WMDs.
Audit: Many U.S. weapons in Iraq missing - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

January 9, 2004, when Icelandic munitions experts and Danish military engineers discovered 36 120-mm mortar rounds containing liquid buried in Southern Iraq.

This was just one location. Some on this board have been to others. One big dirtpile doesn't there isn't something hidden somewhere else. Again, I hear what a few on this board say and what they have posted in the past and I just have to say I lean towards their credibility than something on a paper or a screen.

Again it a matter of using all that is available to make an informed opnion. Thats what I did and from my little hole in Joisey I say there were WMDs.

BTW. What the hell does it matter? We're there, trying to do our best. The bitch is the questions of removing our troops before the job is finished. WMDs is soooo 2004!

 

[Hunter368]

Civ,

I have no problem with you either, you ask a lot of good questions. But you were starting to get Chris annoyed and not letting up. I have seen members come and go, I know what can get a member banned.....you were heading in that direction. All I was saying was what I thought you needed to hear to slow you down little. You have slowed down a little since I said that.....was it b/c what I said or did you slow down by yourself? I don't care which as long as you did.

No, I am no Mod "here", but I know what a Mod will put up with and what he will not. I just want to keep good members around for the betterment of myself and everyone else on this forum. We all learn from each other. Sometimes I can come across as a bit of a peace maker....thats fine by me.

I really don't care if you prove Chris wrong or that I agree with him. (by the way I agree with you also to a degree) I also don't follow all your posts or what Chris says to you on other threads. I am speaking only about this thread.

But I have said my peace, say what you like.....but you seem to have toned down your remarks some. Which is good.

 

[Civettone]

I really don't know and I can only guess. See this that I found and you might be able to understand why the military doesn't want to let on they found WMDs.
Audit: Many U.S. weapons in Iraq missing - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

Njaco, are you sure about this url? This is about nearly one of every 25 weapons the U.S. military bought for Iraqi security forces missing.

This was just one location.

Yes, but it's a good indication of how difficult it is to correctly identify WMDs. Remember, that British-Danish team concluded that they were WMDs. It was only after further research that this was ruled out causing a Danish re-evaluation of their own equipment...

All I was saying was what I thought you needed to hear to slow you down little. You have slowed down a little since I said that.....was it b/c what I said or did you slow down by yourself?

No, that's because Chris hasn't replied yet!
Anyway, Hunter, you meant well and I should thank you as it's pretty obvious you only meant well. At the time I felt you were sticking up for Chris and I felt I had done nothing wrong, so I reacted too harshly on your post.

Kris

 

[Hunter368]

Anyway, Hunter, you meant well and I should thank you as it's pretty obvious you only meant well. At the time I felt you were sticking up for Chris and I felt I had done nothing wrong, so I reacted too harshly on your post.

Kris

No problem, just trying to help out.

I always like to see a devils advocate on the forum.

 

[Matt308]

.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Don't pull that one on me again. You didn't say anything about experts. You need to be an expert to know what a WMD is. (Or why were those experts there.) So then I asked, are you an expert? No, you're not. I also said I wasn't an expert either, so I don't see what you could find insulting about that.

Never said I was an expert but I know what the Chem guys in our units have found. They are experts and you certainly are not. If they verify what we see with our own 2 eyes that is eneogh evidence for me and a hell of lot more evidence than what you find on the internet especially when someone uses Wikipedia...

Well, if you want I can give you some other examples where the US Military claimed that WMDs were found, and that a team of specialists later found they weren't WMDs or no longer active.
So again, where was it and what was it?

Again I have allready told what we found in the many posts previous to this one. You may go back and read them again if you wish, since you obviously did not again if you are asking me.

As for locations, the sites were various locations between Irbel and Tikrit. One was an underground bunker location near our camp. We were there for almost a whole year before we found this one that we were practically sitting on.

I do read your post but you systematically say EVERYTHING is wrong except for what you've seen with your own eyes. I disagree with that. And I've already explained why I disagree with that. I've made analogies with WW2 eye witness accounts. "I've shot down a He 113 and I don't care if you tell me there never was one. Who was there? You or I??"

I do not disagree with everything but I certainly disagree with a liberal who makes judgements calls me and my other service members liars as to what was found and not found, especially when the person questioning my integrity has never been in a combat zone in the middle of Iraq let alone served in the military...

I do respect you Chris, more than you know, but I don't believe everything you say even though I believe you're being truthful about what you've seen.

Kris

And that is your loss because I have nothing to lie about...

Believe what you wish to believe and one day you will see the truth, oh great one.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

They call in experts to identify WMDs. That makes me conclude that you need to be an expert to identify WMDs.
Njaco, you may very well be an expert. I don't know as I don't know a single thing about you. I know Chris is a military helicopter pilot, and I bet a damn good one too.

First of all I was a Crew Chief not a pilot...

And again, he didn't mention he flew in experts. Had I had known this, I wouldn't have made the comment. He said he saw it with his own eyes.
Kris

Yes I did see them with my own two eyes. Do I have to repeat that again.

And yes these experts were our units Chem Officers and NCOs, (every Division in the US Army has them) they tested the sites and the weapons found.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Civettone brings up a good question - if NBCs were found in Iraq, then why is are official gov't reports stating the opposite. I honestly have legitimate answer to this. However, "facts" released to the public are different from what is not released...

Adler's experience is not isolated, nor is he incorrect in what he saw. Obviously I was not there, but his story is not uncommon. The Army has NBC guys attached to every unit that deal with these threats. Now, it goes without saying that NBCs found in Iraq were substantially less than the US gov't expected to find. However, that is not the same as meaning that they did not exist. With scatterings as such found, it seems intuitive to believe that there are MANY that have not been found. You would not develop a sparse sprinkling of token NBCs, that just does not make sense in reality... at least not to me. I'd be like the USMC procuring 1 and a half Ospreys...

It does not matter. I concede that someone who was not in Iraq knows more about the subject matter than I do. It is not worth the headache that he gives me...

Chris was a Crew Chief - don't insult him by calling him a nasty pilot.

Damn right!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If Chris would tell us which site he's talking about, perhaps we (or he) can take a quick peek at the Survey Report and see it being mentioned there. Perhaps that will clarify things.

I am sorry but I can not tell you the exact locations of the sites because I do not know the coordinats of the sites. The sites were locations out in the desert. That is the honest to god truth as well. I dont keep coordinates in my head. I am sure there is a record of it in our units files because the Army keeps everything but I do not have access to any of that information as I know longer have a clearence.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I really don't care if you prove Chris wrong or that I agree with him. (by the way I agree with you also to a degree) I also don't follow all your posts or what Chris says to you on other threads. I am speaking only about this thread.

Here is what I truely believe.

Iraq had WMD's which were moved out of the country and burried at locations to still be found throughout the country (you can hide anything there and it will never be found). Captured Iraqi Generals have even stated that the WMD's were moved to Syria just prior to the invasion.

I dont think the ammount of WMD's was as much as we thought before the war started and I believe that most of it was of deteriorated state and would not have worked anyway.

But he still had them. If there were none then there would not have been a need for the Chem units that were found, the chem protective gear that had been used along with the atropine injectors that had been used.

That being said, he did have them and even if he did not he led the world to believe that he did.