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The USN may want Indomitable, but maybe not her aircraft or aircrew. FDR might just ask to takeover the carrier, essentially an early USS Robin. As for the rest, with no modern AA capability and a very limited range, HMS Repulse would be a drag on USN logistics. HMS Prince of Wales has good radar and modern AA, but for what role or mission?Force Z operates with the USN. An extra carrier deck on a ship with modern guns and radar, plus two capital ships, one at least with the most up to date guns and radar would be a huge boost.
I don't disagree with any of this but the suggestion was about what the RN could do to help at the end of 1941. I have little doubt that if the RN vessels had stayed with the USN up to Midway, they would also have benefitted with the considerable number of 20mm guns which were added to the USN ships of all sizes.The American battleships had a much better big gun AA battery than the Repulse.
Of course with their 21 kt top speed they would be nowhere near where the carriers were.
View attachment 604432
1944 picture but things weren't much different in 1941/42
rate of fire was 15 to 20 rpm with the lower rate being close to what they did in surface fire. If the barrels were near horizontal the guns were harder to load as the loading tray was higher off the deck. Shells weighed about 54 lbs. Please note the fuse setting machines next to each gun.
The Repulse used the older 4in Mark V gun and not the later XVI gun used in twin mounts in all kinds of British Commonwealth ships.
Rate of fire was about the same as the American gun but the shells weighed 31lbs. A lot less metal going into the sky.
I don't believe the British fuse setting arrangements were anywhere near as elaborate.
British light AA (2pdr/40 mm and below) was much better but some US warships acquired light AA pretty quick in the Spring of 1942. AA outfits at the time of Midway and later were considerably different than the summer of 1941 outfits.
The British 5.25in AA gun may not have been all that good in practice. rated of elevation and traverse in the twin mounts was slow and the rate of fire was around 1/2 the smaller guns.
(Yes they did get it up to 12rpm in one demonstration)
I like the idea of the two British capital ships receiving more AA. When and where do we see this being installed? Is Phillips ordered to stay at San Diego for upgrades instead of sailing with the USS Saratoga CBG on Dec 8th? Is the USN base equipped to undertake the AA upgrades?I don't disagree with any of this but the suggestion was about what the RN could do to help at the end of 1941. I have little doubt that if the RN vessels had stayed with the USN up to Midway, they would also have benefitted with the considerable number of 20mm guns which were added to the USN ships of all sizes.
I've often thought it a little cheeky how little Britain contributed to the defence and liberation of their Pacific territory. For example, Britain owned the Solomon Islands, including Guadacanal, but it was the Americans, with help from Australia who fought and died to defend and recapture it. So, considering that so much US effort is being made to defend British or CW territory, including the Solomons, PNG and Australia itself, it seems only fair that Force Z fight alongside the USN.Force Z operates with the USN.
All seems pretty reasonable, here's a pretty good piece on the Robin: Armoured Aircraft CarriersThe USN may want Indomitable, but maybe not her aircraft or aircrew. FDR might just ask to takeover the carrier, essentially an early USS Robin. As for the rest, with no modern AA capability and a very limited range, HMS Repulse would be a drag on USN logistics. HMS Prince of Wales has good radar and modern AA, but for what role or mission?
I'd like to think Phillips is ordered to Darwin to protect PNG. Going to defend Malaya is not possible, especially for the short legged Repulse. I wouldn't send them for Java Sea either, it would be a suicidal and hopeless defence of DEI. Instead, Force Z joins Admiral Frank Fletcher's fleet for Coral Sea. Hopefully more AA can be stuffed onto Repulse's decks. Worst case is Churchill orders Force Z to Ceylon to wait out the Pacific War until 1944, like he did in actuality with Sommerville.
It's at the defence of PNG and the Battle of Coral Sea that I'd like to see the Albacore and bomb-equipped Fulmars make strong contributions. How does the Sea Hurricane tackle the Zero? Hurricane Mk IIC vs. A6M2 Zero
One possible advantage may be that after its lack of agility was demonstrated against the Bf 109 during the Battle of Britain, the Sea Hurricane pilots, unlike their RAF/RAAF Spitfire-equipped friends over Darwin, would be under no illusions that their fighter can dogfight. So the Sea Hurricane pilots may already be expecting to boom and zoom.Also good question on how the Sea Hurricane tackles the Zero, I have a feeling the Zero might be the one doing the tackling at first.
I think this is a very valid point, the Sea Hurrie pilots would certainly know the pros and cons of their aircraft.One possible advantage may be that after its lack of agility was demonstrated against the Bf 109 during the Battle of Britain, the Sea Hurricane pilots, unlike their RAF/RAAF Spitfire-equipped friends over Darwin, would be under no illusions that their fighter can dogfight. So the Sea Hurricane pilots may already be expecting to boom and zoom.
What?One possible advantage may be that after its lack of agility was demonstrated against the Bf 109 during the Battle of Britain, the Sea Hurricane pilots, unlike their RAF/RAAF Spitfire-equipped friends over Darwin, would be under no illusions that their fighter can dogfight. So the Sea Hurricane pilots may already be expecting to boom and zoom.
I agree. And since success encourages investment perhaps HMS Hermes and the other RN ships now at Ceylon would instead head to Freemantle to join up with Force Z. That'll see Phillips outranked though.Indomitable would have had a field day if she was included in the Lae-Salamaua raid, because the Albacore had effective torpedoes and they could carry a heavier bomb load when configured as a divebomber. The Fulmar would have had the range to be an effective escort.
Thanks for that. I've had a look at this official report of the time which supports your comments above. The note about the Hurricane's vertical seat causing blackouts was interesting.What? The Hurricane was far more maneuverable than the Me109E and any 109 pilot who entered a turning fight with the Hurricane was in deep trouble. The Hurricane suffered when the Me109 used "boom and zoom", to take advantage of it's high speed and climb rate, especially above 16k feet or so.
The Fulmars should do well against the Betty, especially at ~10k ft or less.Given its success against the Sparrowhawk, it would be interesting to see the Fulmar take on the Bettys. I agree. And since success encourages investment perhaps HMS Hermes and the other RN ships now at Ceylon would instead head to Freemantle to join up with Force Z. That'll see Phillips outranked though.
Hermes can be the aircraft ferry. Indomitable has the speed to serve at Coral Sea, and will be desperately needed as the USN was down to just two carriers for that battle. Hermes would have been nearly useless in an offensive role in the PNG/Solomons campaigns.The Fulmars should do well against the Betty, especially at ~10k ft or less.
The big problem with diverting RN carriers to the Pacific is that Indomitable was invaluable as an aircraft ferry prior to Operation C. An interesting option would have been to have Hermes refitted in the USA prior to PH.
Hermes can be the aircraft ferry. Indomitable has the speed to serve at Coral Sea, and will be desperately needed as the USN was down to just two carriers for that battle. Hermes would have been nearly useless in an offensive role in the PNG/Solomons campaigns.
It is a shame the RN's carrier force didn't have a luckier first few years. You won't fit many Fulmars in Hermes. Assuming the lifts are enlarged to fit, I've drawn up a scale image below of Hermes' hangar with reasonable maintenance space for Fulmars. We could cram in a few more, but not many and still have room to move, especially when you see the narrowing width of the hangar.Hermes doesn't have the ability to be an efficient aircraft ferry without a refit. If Glorious or Courageous had survived, they could have done the job. With a refit, Hermes could have operated ~aircraft and maybe provided aircover for Crace's cruiser squadron. One of the reason's that Hermes was lost is that the RN was trying to do an emergency refit to allow her to operate Fulmars.