Force Z waits for HMS Indomitable, and then goes via Panama instead of Cape Town

[Admiral Beez]

It's understood that Force Z never intended to wait for HMS Indomitable, so Phillips would have arrived at Singapore without a carrier regardless of Indomitable grounding herself in the Caribbean on Nov 2, 1941. But, let's change this point and the routing. Force Z waits in home waters for the carrier. Indomitable does not ground herself, and continues her sea trials and commissioning, returning to Britain on Nov 5th to load up with her four squadrons (800 Fulmars, 880 Sea Hurricanes, Albacores 827 and 831).

On Nov 14th, the seven ships of Force Z sail from Southampton, UK for Singapore via Panama, California and Hawaii. HMS Repulse, with a range of only 3,650 nmi creates logistical challenges. The four destroyers have a range of 6,300 nmi, PoW and Indomitable have a range of more than 10,000 nmi. Itinerary as follows (Sea Routing):

1. Nov 14 - 22 (2,975 nmi, 7 days at 18 knots) Southampton, UK to Bermuda to refuel Repulse (no need to refuel other six ships)
2. Nov 23 - 27 (1,640 nmi, 4 days at 18 knots) Bermuda to Panama (Repulse and four destroyers refueled)
3. Nov 28 - Dec 5 (2,865 nmi, 7 days at 18 knots) Panama to North Island, San Diego, CA (USPACFLT base)
4. Dec 5 - Dec 7 (in port, all seven ships refuel) Force Z remains at San Diego for shore leave and for Admiral Phillips and his captains Leach (PoW), Tennant (Repulse), and Troubridge (Indomitable) to meet with USPACFLT local C/O (COMUSPACFLT Kimmel is in Hawaii) and USN and British consular staff
5. Dec 7th (10 am local time) Japan attacks Pearl Harbour
6. Dec 7th (before noon) USS Saratoga and escorts arrive at San Diego to embark her air group, plus VMF 221 and a cargo of aircraft to ferry to Pearl Harbor
7. Dec 8th, USS Saratoga departs San Diego for Pearl Harbour at top speed

Word of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour (but not yet of the Philippines, Malaya, Thailand and DEI) quickly reaches Phillips. By 10:30 am on Dec 7th Phillips sends a message to the Admiralty requesting orders. By noon on Dec 7th, Phillips can see USS Saratoga rapidly preparing to depart the next day. What orders should Churchill and the Admiralty give Phillips? What do we see Force Z doing next? Until the USS North Carolina arrives in the Pacific in May 1942, HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse are the only Allied big gun ships active in the Pacific - not that there was a big role for battleships. As for Indomitable, how can she and her small CAG contribute? Indomitable might be a welcome ferry for USAAC aircraft destined for Hawaii.

 

[Glider]

Force Z operates with the USN. An extra carrier deck on a ship with modern guns and radar, plus two capital ships, one at least with the most up to date guns and radar would be a huge boost.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Force Z operates with the USN. An extra carrier deck on a ship with modern guns and radar, plus two capital ships, one at least with the most up to date guns and radar would be a huge boost.

The USN may want Indomitable, but maybe not her aircraft or aircrew. FDR might just ask to takeover the carrier, essentially an early USS Robin. As for the rest, with no modern AA capability and a very limited range, HMS Repulse would be a drag on USN logistics. HMS Prince of Wales has good radar and modern AA, but for what role or mission?

I'd like to think Phillips is ordered to Darwin to protect PNG. Going to defend Malaya is not possible, especially for the short legged Repulse. I wouldn't send them for Java Sea either, it would be a suicidal and hopeless defence of DEI. Instead, Force Z joins Admiral Frank Fletcher's fleet for Coral Sea. Hopefully more AA can be stuffed onto Repulse's decks. Worst case is Churchill orders Force Z to Ceylon to wait out the Pacific War until 1944, like he did in actuality with Sommerville.

It's at the defence of PNG and the Battle of Coral Sea that I'd like to see the Albacore and bomb-equipped Fulmars make strong contributions. How does the Sea Hurricane tackle the Zero? Hurricane Mk IIC vs. A6M2 Zero

 

[Admiral Beez]

G Glider I like your idea. How should we deploy Force Z at Coral Sea? At this stage where RN and USN tactics and communications differ, perhaps Force Z should operate as a separate force to the south of Fletcher's main CBG?

 

[Glider]

If there was one lesson of Midway, the Japanese paid a huge price by separating the Battleships from the Carriers. So I would integrate the the RN vessels into the USN. Keeping the Battleships with the carriers gives practical AA support, and it dilutes the attack across more decks improving everyone's chances of survival. Battleships even the Repulse are designed to take hits, carriers aren't although the RN carriers could take more than most.
I certainly agree that the FAA aircraft should be replaced by USN aircraft.

Both would be useful as AA escorts to the Carrier Fleet. Clearly the Prince of Wales had as good an AA defence as anything else afloat, anywhere. The Repulse was a long way behind but probably no worse than most USN Battleships in December 1941.
The radar suite of all three RN vessels was also more extensive than those fitted in the USN vessels at the time. Plus of course, they had been at war for over two years, factors often overlooked in these sorts of comparisons.

AA equipment Dec 1941
Repulse - 6 x 4in (6 x 1) AA, 24 x 2pd (3 x 8) 15 x 20mm (15 x 1) 16 x 0.5 (4 x 4)
Colorado Class - 8 x 5in (8 x 1), 16 x 1.1 (4 x 4), 10 x 0.5 (10 x 1)
Tennessee Class - 8 x 5in (8 x 1), 10 x 0.5 (10 x 1)
New Mexico Class - 8 x 5in (8 x 1), 16 x 1.1 (4 x 4)
Pennsylvania Class - 12 x 5in (8 x 1), 8 x 0.5 (8 x 1)

Bunkers
I don't know the ranges of these vessels, but the bunker sizes were not that dissimilar. The RN ships are often derided as having short legs which could be true but I don't think the difference was as much as people think. I should add that the Modern USN Battleships were in a whole different league with bunkers easily over 6,000 tons.

Repulse - 4,245 tons
Colorado Class - 4,570 tons
Tennessee Class - 4,656 tons
New Mexico Class - 3,277 tons
Pennsylvania Class - 2,322 tons

 

[Shortround6]

The American battleships had a much better big gun AA battery than the Repulse.
Of course with their 21 kt top speed they would be nowhere near where the carriers were.

1944 picture but things weren't much different in 1941/42
rate of fire was 15 to 20 rpm with the lower rate being close to what they did in surface fire. If the barrels were near horizontal the guns were harder to load as the loading tray was higher off the deck. Shells weighed about 54 lbs. Please note the fuse setting machines next to each gun.

The Repulse used the older 4in Mark V gun and not the later XVI gun used in twin mounts in all kinds of British Commonwealth ships.
Rate of fire was about the same as the American gun but the shells weighed 31lbs. A lot less metal going into the sky.
I don't believe the British fuse setting arrangements were anywhere near as elaborate.

British light AA (2pdr/40 mm and below) was much better but some US warships acquired light AA pretty quick in the Spring of 1942. AA outfits at the time of Midway and later were considerably different than the summer of 1941 outfits.

The British 5.25in AA gun may not have been all that good in practice. rated of elevation and traverse in the twin mounts was slow and the rate of fire was around 1/2 the smaller guns.
(Yes they did get it up to 12rpm in one demonstration)

 

[Glider]

The American battleships had a much better big gun AA battery than the Repulse.
Of course with their 21 kt top speed they would be nowhere near where the carriers were.
View attachment 604432
1944 picture but things weren't much different in 1941/42
rate of fire was 15 to 20 rpm with the lower rate being close to what they did in surface fire. If the barrels were near horizontal the guns were harder to load as the loading tray was higher off the deck. Shells weighed about 54 lbs. Please note the fuse setting machines next to each gun.

The Repulse used the older 4in Mark V gun and not the later XVI gun used in twin mounts in all kinds of British Commonwealth ships.
Rate of fire was about the same as the American gun but the shells weighed 31lbs. A lot less metal going into the sky.
I don't believe the British fuse setting arrangements were anywhere near as elaborate.

British light AA (2pdr/40 mm and below) was much better but some US warships acquired light AA pretty quick in the Spring of 1942. AA outfits at the time of Midway and later were considerably different than the summer of 1941 outfits.

The British 5.25in AA gun may not have been all that good in practice. rated of elevation and traverse in the twin mounts was slow and the rate of fire was around 1/2 the smaller guns.
(Yes they did get it up to 12rpm in one demonstration)

I don't disagree with any of this but the suggestion was about what the RN could do to help at the end of 1941. I have little doubt that if the RN vessels had stayed with the USN up to Midway, they would also have benefitted with the considerable number of 20mm guns which were added to the USN ships of all sizes.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't disagree with any of this but the suggestion was about what the RN could do to help at the end of 1941. I have little doubt that if the RN vessels had stayed with the USN up to Midway, they would also have benefitted with the considerable number of 20mm guns which were added to the USN ships of all sizes.

I like the idea of the two British capital ships receiving more AA. When and where do we see this being installed? Is Phillips ordered to stay at San Diego for upgrades instead of sailing with the USS Saratoga CBG on Dec 8th? Is the USN base equipped to undertake the AA upgrades?

Does HMS Indomitable stay behind as well, perhaps to await new aircraft? In early Dec 1941 there are no folding Wildcats available, and the non-folding variety offers no performance advantages over the Sea Hurricanes. The Albacore is arguably better than the USN's Devastator, especially with the RN's reliable torpedoes. The Fulmars are slow, but their heavy gun armament, long range and bomb capability would be a good contribution at Coral Sea and elsewhere. If possible, the Douglas Dauntless could replace the Fulmars, or the former can just be stuffed onboard somewhere without reducing the Fulmars, especially as aircraft will be lost in battle in the coming weeks and months.

Force Z operates with the USN.

I've often thought it a little cheeky how little Britain contributed to the defence and liberation of their Pacific territory. For example, Britain owned the Solomon Islands, including Guadacanal, but it was the Americans, with help from Australia who fought and died to defend and recapture it. So, considering that so much US effort is being made to defend British or CW territory, including the Solomons, PNG and Australia itself, it seems only fair that Force Z fight alongside the USN.

 

[Peter Gunn]

The USN may want Indomitable, but maybe not her aircraft or aircrew. FDR might just ask to takeover the carrier, essentially an early USS Robin. As for the rest, with no modern AA capability and a very limited range, HMS Repulse would be a drag on USN logistics. HMS Prince of Wales has good radar and modern AA, but for what role or mission?

I'd like to think Phillips is ordered to Darwin to protect PNG. Going to defend Malaya is not possible, especially for the short legged Repulse. I wouldn't send them for Java Sea either, it would be a suicidal and hopeless defence of DEI. Instead, Force Z joins Admiral Frank Fletcher's fleet for Coral Sea. Hopefully more AA can be stuffed onto Repulse's decks. Worst case is Churchill orders Force Z to Ceylon to wait out the Pacific War until 1944, like he did in actuality with Sommerville.

It's at the defence of PNG and the Battle of Coral Sea that I'd like to see the Albacore and bomb-equipped Fulmars make strong contributions. How does the Sea Hurricane tackle the Zero? Hurricane Mk IIC vs. A6M2 Zero

All seems pretty reasonable, here's a pretty good piece on the Robin: Armoured Aircraft Carriers

and what it took to get ready, you have to scroll about halfway down to get to the logistics of the endeavor.

Also good question on how the Sea Hurricane tackles the Zero, I have a feeling the Zero might be the one doing the tackling at first.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Also good question on how the Sea Hurricane tackles the Zero, I have a feeling the Zero might be the one doing the tackling at first.

One possible advantage may be that after its lack of agility was demonstrated against the Bf 109 during the Battle of Britain, the Sea Hurricane pilots, unlike their RAF/RAAF Spitfire-equipped friends over Darwin, would be under no illusions that their fighter can dogfight. So the Sea Hurricane pilots may already be expecting to boom and zoom.

 

[Peter Gunn]

One possible advantage may be that after its lack of agility was demonstrated against the Bf 109 during the Battle of Britain, the Sea Hurricane pilots, unlike their RAF/RAAF Spitfire-equipped friends over Darwin, would be under no illusions that their fighter can dogfight. So the Sea Hurricane pilots may already be expecting to boom and zoom.

I think this is a very valid point, the Sea Hurrie pilots would certainly know the pros and cons of their aircraft.

 

[RCAFson]

One possible advantage may be that after its lack of agility was demonstrated against the Bf 109 during the Battle of Britain, the Sea Hurricane pilots, unlike their RAF/RAAF Spitfire-equipped friends over Darwin, would be under no illusions that their fighter can dogfight. So the Sea Hurricane pilots may already be expecting to boom and zoom.

What?

The Hurricane was far more maneuverable than the Me109E and any 109 pilot who entered a turning fight with the Hurricane was in deep trouble. The Hurricane suffered when the Me109 used "boom and zoom", to take advantage of it's high speed and climb rate, especially above 16k feet or so.

 

[RCAFson]

Indomitable would have had a field day if she was included in the Lae-Salamaua raid, because the Albacore had effective torpedoes and they could carry a heavier bomb load when configured as a divebomber. The Fulmar would have had the range to be an effective escort.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Given its success against the Sparrowhawk, it would be interesting to see the Fulmar take on the Bettys.

Indomitable would have had a field day if she was included in the Lae-Salamaua raid, because the Albacore had effective torpedoes and they could carry a heavier bomb load when configured as a divebomber. The Fulmar would have had the range to be an effective escort.

I agree. And since success encourages investment perhaps HMS Hermes and the other RN ships now at Ceylon would instead head to Freemantle to join up with Force Z. That'll see Phillips outranked though.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What? The Hurricane was far more maneuverable than the Me109E and any 109 pilot who entered a turning fight with the Hurricane was in deep trouble. The Hurricane suffered when the Me109 used "boom and zoom", to take advantage of it's high speed and climb rate, especially above 16k feet or so.

Thanks for that. I've had a look at this official report of the time which supports your comments above. The note about the Hurricane's vertical seat causing blackouts was interesting.

I may need to pick up this book Hurricanes Versus Zeros. So, perhaps our Sea Hurricane pilots will be as ignorant of their chances against the Zero in close quarters as the RAF/RAAF was of their Spitfires over Darwin. God held the lads in the Fulmars.

 

[RCAFson]

Given its success against the Sparrowhawk, it would be interesting to see the Fulmar take on the Bettys. I agree. And since success encourages investment perhaps HMS Hermes and the other RN ships now at Ceylon would instead head to Freemantle to join up with Force Z. That'll see Phillips outranked though.

The Fulmars should do well against the Betty, especially at ~10k ft or less.

The big problem with diverting RN carriers to the Pacific is that Indomitable was invaluable as an aircraft ferry prior to Operation C. An interesting option would have been to have Hermes refitted in the USA prior to PH.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Fulmars should do well against the Betty, especially at ~10k ft or less.

The big problem with diverting RN carriers to the Pacific is that Indomitable was invaluable as an aircraft ferry prior to Operation C. An interesting option would have been to have Hermes refitted in the USA prior to PH.

Hermes can be the aircraft ferry. Indomitable has the speed to serve at Coral Sea, and will be desperately needed as the USN was down to just two carriers for that battle. Hermes would have been nearly useless in an offensive role in the PNG/Solomons campaigns.

 

[RCAFson]

Hermes can be the aircraft ferry. Indomitable has the speed to serve at Coral Sea, and will be desperately needed as the USN was down to just two carriers for that battle. Hermes would have been nearly useless in an offensive role in the PNG/Solomons campaigns.

Hermes doesn't have the ability to be an efficient aircraft ferry without a refit. If Glorious or Courageous had survived, they could have done the job. With a refit, Hermes could have operated ~15-20 aircraft and maybe provided aircover for Crace's cruiser squadron. One of the reason's that Hermes was lost is that the RN was trying to do an emergency refit to allow her to operate Fulmars.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Hermes doesn't have the ability to be an efficient aircraft ferry without a refit. If Glorious or Courageous had survived, they could have done the job. With a refit, Hermes could have operated ~aircraft and maybe provided aircover for Crace's cruiser squadron. One of the reason's that Hermes was lost is that the RN was trying to do an emergency refit to allow her to operate Fulmars.

It is a shame the RN's carrier force didn't have a luckier first few years. You won't fit many Fulmars in Hermes. Assuming the lifts are enlarged to fit, I've drawn up a scale image below of Hermes' hangar with reasonable maintenance space for Fulmars. We could cram in a few more, but not many and still have room to move, especially when you see the narrowing width of the hangar.

My vote is HMS Indomitable, Prince of Wales and Repulse stay in Australia to fight alongside the USN and RAN in PNG and the Solomons. It's British territory and needs defending. That doesn't mean Indomitable can't do some sprint runs to Ceylon for a few RAF ferry trips. At 20 knots Indomitable can transit from Darwin to Ceylon in under 7 days. At 25 knots it's five days. That's why I like Indomitable in this scenario, she has the speed to do many tasks across the theatre. For example, once folding wing Martlets are available I'd like to see Indomitable return to San Diego to swap out her surviving Sea Hurricanes. At 20 knots Indomitable can transit the 7,150 nmi from Darwin to San Diego in under 15 days.

 

[SwampTiger]

Sorry to rain on your parade. I doubt Churchill, Parliament and the Admiralty will see the rational of this argument. You are sending three of the RN's most valuable ships to assist the USN rather than protect British interests. The mission of Force Z was dissuade Japanese threats to Malaya. The mission cannot be accomplished in the eastern Pacific.

In addition, the British public will wonder why the RN is allowing the Japanese free rein in the South China Sea. Coral Sea is several months in the future. Unless the RN somehow saves one or more of the three lost carriers, it will not send any carrier to assist the USN east of the Solomon Islands during the first half of 1942.

I can see the Admiralty agreeing to assist the USN at Coral Sea should Force Z survive Malaya and the Indian Ocean Raid.