French fighter aircrft

[parsifal]

Imagine the reaction of Douglas Bader if Britain was defeated by Nazi Germany and the French fleet appeared at Scapa Flow to shoot at defenseless Home Fleet ships anchored there.

Cheers

Pepe

Hi pepe

i understand the point you are trying to make, but the analogy is just based on a false premise. whereas the french allowed their fleet to remain in harms way, with the potential to be captured and used by the enemy (the germans), the british would never have allowed that. The Royal navy was ordered to relocate to Canada, in the event that the british isles were occupied. Failing that, it would have scuttled.

The french never understood that. As for the reaction of someone like Bader, he would not have taken the loss of the fleet personally. he would simply have gotten on with the job and continued towards the defeat of the enemy. because britiain was never going to surrender, under any circumstances, the situation of the french, and the british just arent comparable

 

[buffnut453]

Pétain received his power from the National Assembly. Democratic elected representatives formally and legally considered the French State as the right successor of the Third Republic. Vichy France kept its neutrality even after British forces attacked Mers-el-Kebir, killing 1,297 French sailors. Despite this, Admiral Darlan ordered the fleet to scuttle its fine ships at Toulon to comply with compromises taken with its former allies, in 1940, that no French ship would serve under German flag.

Sorry Pepe but I have to take issue with your statements. "Independent" Vichy France was no paragon of democracy. The Vichy leaders started shipping thousands of Jews - French citizens - to Germany before the Nazis even asked them to do so. There was absolutely no guarantee that the French fleet would remain independent, particularly since offers to have the Vichy fleet join Free French forces in the UK or sail to a non-combatant country like the USA were refused.

 

[peperez]

"... Imagine the reaction of Douglas Bader if Britain was defeated by Nazi Germany and the French fleet appeared at Scapa Flow to shoot at defenseless Home Fleet ships anchored there. "

No disrespect pepe, but I find that analogy quite amusing.

Are you suggesting that the French Fleet have been left untouched as an instrument of the"legitimate" French gov't?

MM

No, what I'm saying is that British action at Mers-el-Kebir aroused a lot of hate at French forces, even at the Free French soldiers. Even Admiral Summerville, the task force commander, was critic about the action. About Vichy legitimacy, the decision to give Petain was taken by French Legislative, legally. There was no German influence on it.

It's necessary remark that the French fleet was ordered by Darlan to sail to America's colonies if there was any possibility of a German or Italian attack. Britain's action only put a lot of fine ships at Toulon, at Nazi reach. There's a large bibliography to support my post. If Summerville ultimatum proposed the transfer of the fleet to American ports at first place, probably there would be no combat. The French fleet would lifted anchors and follow the British ships to Martinica. Darlan never received the last part of the ultimatum that established this option.

As I say, I have no sympathy for Vichy, but it was a legally formed state, supported by a French Parliament decision, and I can understand why people like Marin de la Meslée and Le Gloan defended it. You can not judge them by today's standards. They have to choose between a legal and dictatorial French state and a rebel general that stand up aside a country that attacked a neutral country (yes, Vichy was neutral, even after Mers-el-Kebir).

I must remark that De Gaulle is a hero for me. But I can understand why great pilots preferred Vichy. As I say before, it was a complicate time with complicate choices to do.

Cheers

Pepe

 

[peperez]

Sorry Pepe but I have to take issue with your statements. "Independent" Vichy France was no paragon of democracy. The Vichy leaders started shipping thousands of Jews - French citizens - to Germany before the Nazis even asked them to do so. There was absolutely no guarantee that the French fleet would remain independent, particularly since offers to have the Vichy fleet join Free French forces in the UK or sail to a non-combatant country like the USA were refused.

Where I say Vichy was a paragon of democracy? Legally its not democratic synonym. You can have a legally formed state that it's not democratic and USA supported a lot of them in Latin America. Judge Le Gloan and La Meslée by today's standards it's not fair. About joining Free French, that was not an easy option for the officers at Mers-el-Kebir. You have Petain, a WW1 hero, legally stated as chief-of-State by the Parliament, against a lone wolf condemned for treason, General Charles de Gaulle. Admiral Summerville admitted the ultimatum was bad prepared. Darlan never received the last part of it.

Obviously, I preferred democracy. As a journalist, I combat a dictatorship in my country that received all political and material support from a democratic country: USA. It was a legally stated dictatorship. For people like Lindon Johnson and Richard Nixon it was a necessary evil to combat communism (believe me, there was no danger to transform Brazil in a communist country). It was necessary a man of principles like Jimmy Carter to change it.

Britain survived thanks to a mix of Nazi incompetence and corruption and a lot of luck. Just imagine Heinkel He100 or FW187 instead of BF110 at Zestorer Geshwader at Battle of Britain. They have the same range and were superior, but Udet was suspiciously a Messerschmitt unconditional partisan. Every time I saw the great film about Battle of Britain I imagined what could happen and I thank God for the few that defeated Nazi Germany.

Cheers

Pepe

 

[peperez]

Hi pepe

i understand the point you are trying to make, but the analogy is just based on a false premise. whereas the french allowed their fleet to remain in harms way, with the potential to be captured and used by the enemy (the germans), the british would never have allowed that. The Royal navy was ordered to relocate to Canada, in the event that the british isles were occupied. Failing that, it would have scuttled.

The french never understood that. As for the reaction of someone like Bader, he would not have taken the loss of the fleet personally. he would simply have gotten on with the job and continued towards the defeat of the enemy. because britiain was never going to surrender, under any circumstances, the situation of the french, and the british just arent comparable

I made a lot of remarks above. The French Fleet received similar orders and scuttled its ships when German forces approached Toulon. No German regiment ever reached Algeria and Morocco at WW2... The fleet was safe at North Africa and the British action just put it at German reach. About Bader, thanks God he never needed to did difficult choices like Meslée and Le Gloan.

Cheers

Pepe

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... Britain survived thanks to a mix of Nazi incompetence and corruption and a lot of luck".

Pepe .. no skill or grit involved ....?

MM

 

[parsifal]

pepe, you are utterly missing the point. Churchill once said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". he should also have said "the friend of my enemy is my enemy". Because it was that kind of thinking that led to mers el kebir, the campaign in Syria and the invasion of Mozambique. Churchill bent over backward to accommodate and pandy to french interests....they rejected every one of them. Union with the french empire was even offered, for the duration, which would have cost the British far more than it was worth, they rejected it. The French fleet was a dagger to britains throat, and had to be neutralised, why, because the french refused to do the right thing and join the allies, as they knew they should. Their behaviour in the levant was anything but neutral...they were allowing Axis planes and other forces the rights of passage to Iraq and Persia. a totally unnacceptable position. the british were absolutely correct and right to blow them out of the water there as well.

Wherever the french did not act loke jerks and sympathisize and co-operate with the germans they were treated as equals, more than equals really, they were given favoured treatment. Where they collaborated, or behaved as a potential threat to the british, they were dealt with. They had no one but themselves to blame for being shot at, when they displayed clear sympathies toward the germans.

As I said, you would never have found a British fleet acting in the way the french fleet did in 1940. They would never have opted to play games like the french did. no matter what was happening, the British fleet was going to continue to fight the germans to the bitter end. They would never have sat in a port, offering the potential to be captured, or to collaborate. This sort of behaviour by the french was shameful, they should hold their heads in shame over this. The British action was absolutely justified, and the right thing to do.

as for the other comment you made concerning british victory being the result of german mistakes. That is just so much bollocks and rubbish its laughable, and really makes my blood boil whan I here such trash talk. The introduction of a single new piece of equipmewnt was not about to change the outcome of the battle of Britain. German defeat in that battle was much more complex and comprehensive then a single equipment failure. and neither was it the solely the result of hitlers mistakes, or gorings mistakes, or any other isolated excuse you care to proffer as the 'reason" for British victory. sure, german mistakes and mismanagement and equipment failures were factors in Germanys defeat, but equally so were the victories Britain won against the uboats, against the german navy, in north Africa, and ultimately in Northern Europe, and in ahundreed other situations. Britain had her fair share of mistakes and dud equipment, and dumb decisions. This did not stop her ultimate victory. Allied victory was a complex and and hard fought for prize that is cheapened and misunderstood when comments like you are daring to make are made.

 

[Shortround6]

What I find amazing is the continued claims that the He 100 was some kind of wonder fighter. It may have been fast and it may have had range but with existing technology in 1940 it would have been a toothless wonder. It took until 1941 to get the engine mounted cannon to work in the Bf 109 using the same engine and cannon. That leaves a pair of 7.9mm MGs. Maybe more guns could have mounted in other places but then that rather changes the performance of the plane and not for the better.

 

[buffnut453]

Where I say Vichy was a paragon of democracy?

Pepe, you didn't. I did. But you did say "Democratic elected representatives formally and legally considered the French State as the right successor of the Third Republic." My point is that formal and legal succession does not mean that it was right. Hitler was legally the leader of Germany but nobody in their right mind would suggest he was anything other than evil. As Parsifal has pointed out, Vichy France was absolutely NOT independent - it sided with Nazi Germany, hence my point about its treatment of Jews. I also agree with Parsifal that my enemy's friend is my enemy. Britain stood alone after all of Europe fell. The fighting moved to the Mediterranean and North Africa. The Vichy French fleet was a viable and potent threat to British interests and activities in both those theatres and, when every peaceful attempt to neutralise that threat had been rebuffed, Britain had no choice but to destroy it with military force.

 

[Glider]

Britain survived thanks to a mix of Nazi incompetence and corruption and a lot of luck.

Nazi incompetence if that equals Goering Incompetence then you may have a small point, however the RAF had its moments of madness.

Just imagine Heinkel He100 or FW187 instead of BF110 at Zestorer Geshwader at Battle of Britain. They have the same range and were superior, but Udet was suspiciously a Messerschmitt unconditional partisan.

You might equally say 'imagine the RAF with Whirlwinds instead of Blenhiem and Defiant fighters, far superior'. Few would deny that the Defiant and Blenhiem fighters were examples of British incompetence, Germany didn't have a monopoly on stupid mistakes.

Every time I saw the great film about Battle of Britain I imagined what could happen and I thank God for the few that defeated Nazi Germany.

On that I can agree with you

 

[Tartle]

Interesting to note that before the fall of France their government had agreed in principle to build Merlins in France (maybe by Ford?) and a Dewoitine d.520 and Amiot 356 had flown with Merlin X. Anyone got a picture... there is a Dewoitine pic is in RRHT Historical Series No 2: 'Merlin in Perspective' book by Alec Harvey-Bailey

 

[Readie]

[QUOTE.... Britain survived thanks to a mix of Nazi incompetence and corruption and a lot of luck".

Pepe

[/QUOTE]

I was going to reply...but, I cannot be bothered.

 

[pbfoot]

Britain stood alone after all of Europe fell. .

Missed the bit when the Aussies and Kiwis and others packed up and went home

 

[Readie]

Missed the bit when the Aussies and Kiwis and others packed up and went home

The Island of Britain stood alone, that much is true but, as Neil says we had our allies, the Commonweath America.
We should remember that....and who our friends were then and are now.
Cheers
John