I've had this French WWI helmet for a while. Is it possible to know if it is original or if it is a recreation or fake?
Your opinion would be very helpful to me.
Your opinion would be very helpful to me.
French M15 Adrian Helmet (WW1) original or fake? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter jorgelink
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
If it's fake, it fooled me but I'm no expert.
It seems to be the standard Mle 1915 Adrian helmet (in the French - Casque Adrian) . The attached emblem of the burning grenade with 2 crossed cannons in the front of the helmet indicates the one used by an artillerymen. The six part leather suspension webbing indicates the helmet made by the French factory. If it is the orginal one there should be the stamped helmet size ( started with the A,B or C letter eg... A-55, B-58 ) with the rubber stamp and ink/paint on the leather insert or just inside of the helmet "bowl" around its ventilation slot. Also there may be stamped the signature of the manufacturer, series, size and the date (year) of the production. Additionally there could be either stamped or engraved letter markings/signatures on the helmet parts. For instance "HL".
The welded front and rear nebs , creating a characteristic vertical line at the point of attachment may indicate the early period of the production. Actually I have a doubt regarding the colour of the paint because the orginal initial paint was the gloss and called the "bleu brillant". However, later the matt blue-grey ( gris mat / gris bleu) was introduced and was used by the field workshops that were repainting previously produced helmets (usually only the outside, leaving the original interior). And it may be just the case.
The orginal M15 helmet should weigh about 640 to 760g.
The welded front and rear nebs , creating a characteristic vertical line at the point of attachment may indicate the early period of the production. Actually I have a doubt regarding the colour of the paint because the orginal initial paint was the gloss and called the "bleu brillant". However, later the matt blue-grey ( gris mat / gris bleu) was introduced and was used by the field workshops that were repainting previously produced helmets (usually only the outside, leaving the original interior). And it may be just the case.
The orginal M15 helmet should weigh about 640 to 760g.
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- #4
Thank you very much for all the information you give me.
First of all I would like to apologize for my level of English, I will try to express myself as best as possible.
I update you with more information about the helmet:
In the first photo, you can see that there is no type of inscription on the inside of the helmet. Neither size nor manufacturer's brand.
In the second photo, you can see the letters "SM.58". This is located on the reverse side of the leather part. The problem here is that as you said, the sizes were only "A, B or C". Do you have any explanation for this?
In the third and fourth photo, you can see the union with the viewfinder. On my helmet it looks like it is welded directly while on other helmets it looks like it is assembled by 2 screws.
About the paint color, you can see in the rest of the photos that the interior of the helmet is a single color (blue gray/matte gray). But on the outside, it seems that there are two different colors as you said. It looks like it has been painted a darker color over the matte gray. This dark paint, although it looks like black rust, I think it is dark paint since it comes off quite easily in the form of "flakes", as if the paint had not adhered well.
Finally, it weighs 734g
I would like to know your opinion on this new information. I await your response, thank you very much.
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Hello again,
Take it easy. I'm also not a native. So there is no need to apologize.
It's a pity that there aren't any markings. But the helmet type was made by a couple of the factories. For instance the JAPY , Etablissements Reflex, Jouet de Paris, Societe des Phares Auteroche, Compagnie Coloniale, Etablissements Japy, Etablissements Dupeyron, Arsenaux de Brest, Compagnie des Compteurs et Materiels d'Usines a Gaz. However , it is known that there were manufacturers who didn't applied their markings.
It may be the number of series. Or it may be the manufacturer's marking and the size 58. You may measure the circumference inside of the leather suspension webbing. The head circumference : A - 54-56cm, B – 57-59cm and C – 60-62cm.
Yes, as I have mentioned it in my post above the welding of parts was used for the early production M15. Later the kind of join was replaced with the one of two rivets.
The painting of the interior indicates the helmet was finished with the matt blue grey paint orginally. The outside painting can be different because these helmets were re-painted often, especially, after the war. Because the matt paint was introduced two years after the war started it may be be a clue that the helmet could be made in 1917.
The weight is included in the weight range for the helmet. It depended on the helmet size so it seems to be correct IMHO.
Just one more question .. could you check on the diameter of the rivets attaching the top comb to the helmet bowl? 6mm?
- Thread starter
- #6
Hello again,
Take it easy. I'm also not a native. So there is no need to apologize.
It's a pity that there aren't any markings. But the helmet type was made by a couple of the factories. For instance the JAPY , Etablissements Reflex, Jouet de Paris, Societe des Phares Auteroche, Compagnie Coloniale, Etablissements Japy, Etablissements Dupeyron, Arsenaux de Brest, Compagnie des Compteurs et Materiels d'Usines a Gaz. However , it is known that there were manufacturers who didn't applied their markings.
It may be the number of series. Or it may be the manufacturer's marking and the size 58. You may measure the circumference inside of the leather suspension webbing. The head circumference : A - 54-56cm, B – 57-59cm and C – 60-62cm.
Yes, as I have mentioned it in my post above the welding of parts was used for the early production M15. Later the kind of join was replaced with the one of two rivets.
The painting of the interior indicates the helmet was finished with the matt blue grey paint orginally. The outside painting can be different because these helmets were re-painted often, especially, after the war. Because the matt paint was introduced two years after the war started it may be be a clue that the helmet could be made in 1917.
The weight is included in the weight range for the helmet. It depended on the helmet size so it seems to be correct IMHO.
Just one more question .. could you check on the diameter of the rivets attaching the top comb to the helmet bowl? 6mm?
I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner, I've been busy these days.
I have included new photos.
The screws looks like 7mm approx. The chin strap is like 1cm.
About the brand, a guy in another forum told me that it could be from the Japy brand because it is welded instead of having screws.
What would be your final verdict? hahaha
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Hi again,
No problemo. I was busy as well.
I can see you measured the diameter of the leather sweatband. Unfortuantely you got the external diameter but the soldier's head was inside of it. But the 60cm says it should be about 58-59 so the B size what seems to correspond to the helmet weight. The 7mm diameter rivets of the "top comb" may indicate the early production helmet. The later ones got the rivets of the 6mm in the diameter. The same is indicated by the welded parts. Whether the JAPO factory ... I would be skeptical .. the manufacturer signed their helmets. Here there is any sign of it. But as I said it above, there were factories that didn't stamp their logos.
To replay your question ... humm ... actually it is quite difficult to state if it is the orginal or not. The helmet has the details that say it is while the other ones it is not at least partially. For instance, the rivets eyelets of the "leaves" of the leather suspension webbing. All these I saw in museums etc .. had them of the brass but not the aluminium. The metal was quite expensive at that time rater and wasn't used for the mass production like it is today. Also the helmet is of a very good condition what may be quite odd for a 105/107- year-old item. But I also have seen these of a such state despite their age.
Well ... if there is no a good evidence it is fake it can be said it is the orginal helmet.
My best.
No problemo. I was busy as well.
I can see you measured the diameter of the leather sweatband. Unfortuantely you got the external diameter but the soldier's head was inside of it. But the 60cm says it should be about 58-59 so the B size what seems to correspond to the helmet weight. The 7mm diameter rivets of the "top comb" may indicate the early production helmet. The later ones got the rivets of the 6mm in the diameter. The same is indicated by the welded parts. Whether the JAPO factory ... I would be skeptical .. the manufacturer signed their helmets. Here there is any sign of it. But as I said it above, there were factories that didn't stamp their logos.
To replay your question ... humm ... actually it is quite difficult to state if it is the orginal or not. The helmet has the details that say it is while the other ones it is not at least partially. For instance, the rivets eyelets of the "leaves" of the leather suspension webbing. All these I saw in museums etc .. had them of the brass but not the aluminium. The metal was quite expensive at that time rater and wasn't used for the mass production like it is today. Also the helmet is of a very good condition what may be quite odd for a 105/107- year-old item. But I also have seen these of a such state despite their age.
Well ... if there is no a good evidence it is fake it can be said it is the orginal helmet.
My best.
