Fw-187 could have been German P-51?

wuzak said:

Thanks SR.

The "condesers" under the cylinder blocks may be heat exhchangers with liquid/vapour on one side and a cooling liquid on the other side. That is, maybe, 2 cooling circuits.

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The book has one page on the He 100 system. 6 pages on the hot steam system and a 5 page 'chapter' on the 187B which was to use the system. It is not as detailed as it might sound becasue some 'chapters' are padded out with photo's that have no bearing on the subject. Like pictures of oil tank and a hydraulic valve block for landing gear in the cooling system chapter. BUT no mention is made of using ANY surface of the airplane as part of the cooling system. No pictures of such surface and of the few rather sketchy diagrams no 'surface' coolers seem to be involved, one sketch shows the motor, pumpe, dampf-Absch (? hard to read) and Kuhler.
There is a picture of a Bf 110 used to test the system with a rather large lumpy cowling with a lower intake that makes the Jumo 210 radiator look positively tiny.

I am convinced (short of photographic evidence to the contrary) that the FW 187 didn't use 'surface cooling" like the He 100.

GregP - yes, aouthors could find all this information but they must also be willing to do so. It's far easier to repeat info from older books and sell it as new book.
BTW try to get soem information about the Fw 187 book and you'll find out he's a highly reputable author.

If authors are willing to put a lot of effort into researching manufacturer archives or in the Bundesarchive you'll be surprised what you can dig up there. For example 20+ years of research done by recently deceased Thomas L. Jentz and his books about german afv, ac and ht vehicles, rendering many old publications outdated (and some complete rubbish, always amusing to read books about StuG III claiming a L/33 gun version to exist).

You seem to miss the point that the Mk-IX and the even more extreme Mk-XIV both had very long gestation periods. The single largest problem with both of them was the lack of Directional Stability caused by fitment of the four and later five bladed props which added enough area forward, that the rudder and Horizontal Stab were no longer large enough to have the same sterling flight qualities as the earlier types.

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What point is that, Shooter? Jabberwocky; point taken.

That may have led to Spitfire IIIs instead of Vs and no Hurricane IIs.

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Wuzak, yep; Mk.III was, as you state, modified to become the first two-speed, two-stage Merlin Spitfire recipient. The first Merlin 60 was produced in early/mid (don't have an exact date) 1941 for B.23/39 after the high altitude Hercules engines weren't able to meet performance specs at altitude. There is no reason to hypothesise that if a threat evolved sooner that Rolls would not get to work on such a thing sooner. If this engine was fitted to a Spitfire III or even Mk.I airframe, the timeline I specified is not too fantastic for producing a service Spitfire fitted with a 60 Series Merlin.

nuuumannn said:

Wuzak, yep; Mk.III was, as you state, modified to become the first two-speed, two-stage Merlin Spitfire recipient. The first Merlin 60 was produced in early/mid (don't have an exact date) 1941 for B.23/39 after the high altitude Hercules engines weren't able to meet performance specs at altitude. There is no reason to hypothesise that if a threat evolved sooner that Rolls would not get to work on such a thing sooner. If this engine was fitted to a Spitfire III or even Mk.I airframe, the timeline I specified is not too fantastic for producing a service Spitfire fitted with a 60 Series Merlin.

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The III would have been more competitive with the Bf 109F and the Fw 190 with the 20-series Merlins, I would have thought. Plus it had some refinements over the I/II/V.

Shortround6 said:

The book has one page on the He 100 system. 6 pages on the hot steam system and a 5 page 'chapter' on the 187B which was to use the system. It is not as detailed as it might sound becasue some 'chapters' are padded out with photo's that have no bearing on the subject. Like pictures of oil tank and a hydraulic valve block for landing gear in the cooling system chapter. BUT no mention is made of using ANY surface of the airplane as part of the cooling system. No pictures of such surface and of the few rather sketchy diagrams no 'surface' coolers seem to be involved, one sketch shows the motor, pumpe, dampf-Absch (? hard to read) and Kuhler.
There is a picture of a Bf 110 used to test the system with a rather large lumpy cowling with a lower intake that makes the Jumo 210 radiator look positively tiny.

I am convinced (short of photographic evidence to the contrary) that the FW 187 didn't use 'surface cooling" like the He 100.

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I have purchased the book, so I will get to see for myself in a few weeks time.

Curious that the system wasn't developed for other aircraft. One would, therefore, have to assume that it didn't work very well.

The III would have been more competitive with the Bf 109F and the Fw 190 with the 20-series Merlins, I would have thought. Plus it had some refinements over the I/II/V.

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Yep, seems strange that it wasn't put into service and the V was continued with, particularly with the Bf 109F's superiority over it. Morgan and Shacklady state that the V was such a success that the Air Ministry ordered it into full scale production; the 'Improved Spitfire' was then abandoned, not helped by a bombing raid on Woolston that destroyed wing sets and drawings for the III.

wuzak said:

I have purchased the book, so I will get to see for myself in a few weeks time.

Curious that the system wasn't developed for other aircraft. One would, therefore, have to assume that it didn't work very well.

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Hello wuzak,

it is very difficult to estimate if there were issues with this cooling system or not.
I think there a bunch of reasons why it wasn't developed further and also I think it was one reason, the FW 187 wasn't put in production.

System reasons.

From the description of the system at the book, it was tricky to have always a good water film through the condensator. There was a lot of experimenting with the condensator, they chnanged it several times and built several different condensators, also the radiotors under the engine were rebuilt, because they can't withstand the water pressure at first. All around the book says the whole system was average to poor from agility (steady flow of water film)at performance changes of the engine, which had effects of the agility of the engine. So to my opinion perhaps a promising system at bigger airfileds, with lot of trained mechanics, spare parts and supply, but nothing for field airfields at the nirwana of the UDSSR or the desert at NA.
Also I think the system took to much space for a single engined a/c, except you built a cockpit wide at the back of the a/c.

RLM/Political reasons

What is to me absolute incomprehensible, why Focker Wulf didn't put simply normal DB 601A engines with normal coolings under the wings of the FW 187 and presented auch a "convential" FW 187 B to the RLM?!
They had the base with the FW 187 A0 and the aerodynamic of the FW 187 was outstanding.
Here I think Focker Wulf was under enormous pressure through the politics of the RLM and the preference to Messerschmitt.
Just like Heinkel, Focker Wulf had no big order at this time from the RLM and so I think they wanted to deliverer something very special, just like Heinkel with He 100. From the book the cooling system of the FW 187 functioned "a lot" better then the system of the He 100, but I think both companys should has stand to the simple convential and field-tested cooling solutions. Before or at the beginning of a war, nobody would change horses to unknown territory.

What can be said is, that the cooling system of the FW 187 in cooperation with DB, accelerated high pressure water cooling at german engines and developed the steam seperator for the next generation engines (DB 605, 603 and Jumo 213).

Before or at the beginning of a war, nobody would change horses to unknown territory.

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I think you might have answered your own question, DonL. Despite its advances and technology available to it, the RLM was essentially a conservative, single minded beast; it was also hard to predict which ideas would stand up to the rigours of combat and which wouldn't in the late 30s - none of the air ministries of any of the key combatants of WW2 got it exactly right every time prior to - and even during the war; the Spanish Civil War certainly gave the Germans a distinct advantage in terms of testing new technologies in war, but against a determined and organised enemy such as the RAF, things proved very different to what the Germans previously experienced and had prepared for. The Zerstoerer concept is a case in point.

nuuumannn said:

Not really, because one thing that you haven't mentioned with regards to the Mustang and its impact on the war, Viking, was its availability in numbers over the combat arena, as well as its performance. Whilst I believe the Fw 187 might have been an excellent fighter had it been put into production and service and it would have had a definite impact on precedings during the Battle of Britain, there would not have been enough of them to have made the same impact that the P-51 had over Germany in 1944-45.

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IIRC the Merlin Mustang was in numerical disadvantage vs. LW in ETO for the 1st several months of service, yet managed to severely dent the LW there. Further, the long range fighter can almost nulify the numerical advantage of the short range defenders - the defenders based in one area of a country are ill able to help out the other defenders based in another area.
Further, the performance disadvantage of the Hurricane would be quite noticeable with LW fielding an almost 390-400 mph fighter.

What the Fw 187 might have done was prompt the British into developing a faster and better performing fighter sooner than what it did and not sticking with just fitting the Merlin 45 to the Spit Mk.I airframe to make the Spit V, which was intended as an interim only. Had the Germans had access to an aircraft with such superior performance that it would and could outclass anything else in the air at the time, you can guarantee the British would not have sat still. Perhaps instead of producing a two-speed, two-stage Merlin for bombers, as the Merlin 60 was originally intended, it could be argued that Rolls would have been asked to carry out research into this modification sooner to enable it to be fitted to the Spitfire sooner, so the Spit Mk.IX could have been available around mid to late 1941 at a guess.

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Stick the Merlin XX in the Spit I/II and you have a 380 mph fighter; introduce retractable tailwheel and wheel well covers and such a fighter does 390 mph? Ie. not going to the fully fledged Spit III, but something more 'producible'. Merlin XX was available during second part of the BoB.

This would have enabled the Griffon to have been fitted with the same supercharger technology sooner, which might have produed not only a Griffon engined Spitfire sooner, but a two-speed, two-stage Griffon engined Spitfire, the 'XIV sooner. What impact would these decisions have made on the Luftwaffe? Also bearing in mind that if Focke Wulf is putting resources into the Fw 187, what are they not putting resources into that had them in real life? The Fw 190? Surely that might not be the best path to have taken for the Luftwaffe considering how excellent that aircraft was.

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The Fw-190 did have problems on it's own, especially due to the problematic BMW-801. With DB-Falke, they have a performer and a heavy hitter in a single package. The fighter can escort supplies in the North Afirca, also escorting the bombers attacking Med conwoys (or hit them on it's own?). RLM can also shelve the Me-210 with such a fighter available.
One can contemplate the Hawker going for a twin Merlin fighter, instead of Typhoon/Tornado?

IIRC the Merlin Mustang was in numerical disadvantage vs. LW in ETO for the 1st several months of service, yet managed to severely dent the LW there. Further, the long range fighter can almost nulify the numerical advantage of the short range defenders - the defenders based in one area of a country are ill able to help out the other defenders based in another area. Further, the performance disadvantage of the Hurricane would be quite noticeable with LW fielding an almost 390-400 mph fighter.

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Agreed on the Hurricane's performance, but that fighter would have been able to outmanoeuvre the Fw 187 with ease, as would the Spitfire, so the fight would not be all the German aircraft's way. Despite your point about the P-51, as valid as it might be, you cannot argue that the numerical superiority it held over Europe was not telling in the end. I doubt the Fw 187 could be built in such numbers that its impact would be the same, despite its high performance.

Stick the Merlin XX in the Spit I/II and you have a 380 mph fighter; introduce retractable tailwheel and wheel well covers and such a fighter does 390 mph? Ie. not going to the fully fledged Spit III, but something more 'producible'. Merlin XX was available during second part of the BoB.

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True. Stick a Merlin 60 in a Spit II or III airframe and you up its speed by over 20 mph above the 380 mph fighter and increase its altitude, rate of climb etc. Perhaps that could have been a worthy stop gap until the 60 Series was available?

The Fw-190 did have problems on it's own, especially due to the problematic BMW-801.

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Yep, I remember reading Hans Sander's description of flying the prototype being like sticking his feet in a furnace. Despite its perceived performance, I doubt the Fw 187 would have been able to fulfill all the roles the Fw 190 did with the Luftwaffe as successfully as the Fw 190 did. That aircraft was a winner and led to some potent derivatives that might not have seen the light of day had FW concentrated on the Fw 187. Very few pre-war designs stayed as relevant as the Fw 190 design did to the very end of the war - the Spitfire and Bf 109 being notable exceptions. Would the Fw 187, with its in-line engines and hefty radiators or vulnerable evaporative cooling system have been as effective as a ground attack/close support aircraft as the Fw 190F family? Would it have remained as relevant as the Fw 190? All hypothetical questions we will never know the exact answer to, and you could argue that all night, really.

The big problem I have with these hypothetical Fw 187s is not really if they could hit the calculated performance figures or not but the timing and performance of the ones being proposed in these threads.
The Fw 187 book gives a detailed break down and calculated performace figures for the Jumo powered versions and for proposed versions/s with DB 605 engines and some information on BMW 801 poered versions/s.
NO information is given on a DB 601 powered version using a "normal" DB 601 and only one speed figure for the prototype with the steam cooled engine with a somewhat "iffy" reference to power and no mention if the plane was armed or unarmed.

As an escort fighter into England in 1940 it would have the same engines as the 109 and 110 of the time. Down perhaps 200-250hp from the engines used in the prototype. It would use the same guns as the 110, 60 round drums on the cannon. Spare drums for the rear seater? or a single seater with limited ammo capacity?
It would have more range than a 109 E but would it have enough?
It is 153 miles from Amiens to London.
239 miles from Amiens to Bristol
332 miles from Amiens to Liverpool
293 miles from Ghent to Leeds.
A FW 187 is going to have about 50% more radius than a 109F. And you have the same problem the allies did, The "escorts" cannot cruise over the English country side at 200-225mph. They have to be going at much closer to 300mph so as not to be sitting targets if bounced. Now they have to "weave" if they are not to get too far from the bombers. There is close escort and there is being in a different county than the bombers.

An early FW 187 could present the British with a lot of problems even so. BUT every FW 187 is TWO 109s not built so the numbers are not going to be there, Granted you can replace the 110 instead but can you replace all of them? are there jobs the 110 is better suited for? There were just under 1100 Bf 110s built in all of 1940.

In the Med things get a bit easier, there is less threat of multiple fighter attacks from the allies, the MG 151 cannon is available but we are still left with which month/year and which engine is being installed. DB 601 Ns and Es or DB 605s?

Completely agree, SR; too many variables. The problem with this sort of thing is that what-ifs beget what-ifs, so in theory you could be going off on a tangent in any direction and arrive at a conclusion no one was expecting at all! Despite all the figures, statistics, charts etc that research has produced on this aircraft, regardless of how thorough, it is all circumstantial when it comes to establishing how effective it would have been in service. There is the possibility that decisions could have been made during the aircraft's development that might have had an adverse effect on its service introduction, beyond what can be predicted using available figures produced from prototypes and pre-production aircraft alone. No one really knows and all we can do is make an educated guess.

Assuming it enters production in mid-1939, which IIRC it was supposed to if kept as a single seat fighter developed with DB engines from the beginning, so it gets into production pre-war by several months. By this point the A-0 series has been delivered, as the first Geschwader is being formed the Erpröbungsgruppe is already formed and working out tactics and training. So its not ready for Poland, except for the Erpröbungsgruppe. The first Geschwader is ready by April, the second by May 1940. The third should be ready no later than June, as that would have been at least full year of production by this point, which, if we even take the 1100 production figure of the BF110 in 1940 and half it (for the first 6 months), then we have 550 Fw187s produced just in 1940 by June, which is more than enough to form 3 wings and replace losses up to this point. But the Fw187 requires less material than the heavier Bf110 and potentially less time to build, so production might even be higher in 1940, not to mention the 1939 production.

By June of 1940 we then have 3 Geschwader of 90 aircraft each operational in July 1940 and probably with another 1-2 forming, probably with one more ready by August. It looks like several BF110 (our heuristic for the Fw187, which would replace it) were formed in May 1939 (at least three that I've found: Zerstörergeschwaders 2, 76, and 52).

As to the Bf110, the only thing it really did that the Fw187 couldn't do was operate as a night fighter.
As to the weaponry, the MG FF is going to be the main cannon throughout the BoB, with the 4th formed Geschwader probably getting it in August/September. The Db601N was available from late 1939, but only in small numbers: Kurfürst - DB 601, 603, 605 datasheets - DB 601 N
AFAIK it was mainly used in the Bf110, so the 3rd formed Geschwader would likely be the first to get it.

In Jan 1941 there were 153 Bf 110s in service with 601N engines. there were fewer than 500 engines total including 109s, He 111s and Do 215s. Granted this does not include engines/aircraft lost.

The Bf 110 may have made a better schnell bomber. It's bigger wing, while offering more drag also offered more lift for bombs and fuel. Some DB 601 powered 110s being able to lift two 1100lb bombs plus two 300 liter drop tanks.
Photo recon may be another role depending upon if access to the camera/s is needed in flight.

I think that all the figures given in these threads are like a bikini: the things they show are suggestive, but the things they hide are the essential.......

nuuumannn said:

No one really knows and all we can do is make an educated guess.

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And some guesses are stretching that condition (educated)!

A decent single seat fighter? Probably. It was doomed when the "zerstorer" conditions were placed on it.

High altitude interceptor?......Possibly with substantial modification.

Night fighter, like the Bf 110/Ju 88?...... No and the RLM said so

Fighter bomber, as the Fw 190 managed?.......No, it was never seriously considered for this role, except by Tank. He was good at coming up with schemes to save failed projects, like the Ta 154 "Mistel".

Fast bomber like the Me 410?........No, again, the option didn't exist.

Bomber destroyer?..........No, a role not anticipated before the axe fell, but it wasn't a suitable air frame for mounting heavy armament.

I don't find it difficult to see, given the situation at the various times the axe fell, why the RLM never developed the project.

The engine issue is a valid one, but the RLM barely mentions the Fw 187 or its engine requirements after the initial decision to use the Jumos on the first version. I don't think that the project ever really had serious consideration or backing.
Some may blame the failure of the project on incompetence or individuals in the Ministry or government, but I take a more pragmatic view of history.

The Catholic church rarely burnt witches (but plenty of heretics). Those young ambitious lawyers of the "Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición" would raise tricky questions when told of flying broom sticks and talking cats, like "where's the evidence?" or "can you show me this cat?"
I only use that example because I happen to be in Madrid at the moment!

Cheers
Steve

I was think of Mk108 cannon.

IMO high velocity 3cm Mk103 cannon does not belong on a WWII era fighter aircraft. CAS aircraft are a different matter.

The 3cm MK 103 cannon is a heck of lot better anti-bomber weapon than a lot of the other stuff the Germans tried. 37mm AA guns, 50mm cannon, The 21cm rockets.

You just need a twin engine aircraft to carry it.

3cm MK 103 cannon is a heck of lot better anti-bomber weapon than a lot of the other stuff the Germans tried. 37mm AA guns, 50mm cannon

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I think you are wrong about BK 5 cannon. It works great provided BK 5 equipped aircraft have adequate fighter escort.
BK 5 cannon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the account of the engagements against the USAAF by II./ZG 26 from late February through mid-April 1944 mentioned at a German language website,[3] the 53 Me 410 Hornissen of that Zerstörergruppe equipped with the BK 5 - as the Umrüst-Bausätze factory modification designated /U4 for the Me 410 series of aircraft - were said to have to shot down a total of 129 B-17 Flying Fortress and four B-24 Liberator heavy bomber aircraft, distributed over a series of five or six interceptions, all while losing only nine of their own Me 410s

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Fw-187 mit BK 5 cannon would be an interesting combination for bomber interception as the aircraft should be capable of over 400mph when powered by DB605 engines. Falke could dive into cannon range, empty the 21 round magazine in about 30 seconds and then dive away before Allied escort fighter aircraft intercede.

A BK 5 weighs 540KG without ammo
The MK 103 weighs 141, two weigh 281 kg. The NK 103 fires 8 shells for every one fired by the BK 5, two MK 103s fire 16 shells for every one fired by the BK 5.
One German study figured both guns had the same effective range, 800 meters.

I do like the 30 second firing run though. Plane covers 3.3 miles from first shot to last. Of course the bomber only flew 1.66 miles if it was doing 200mph in the same period of time so either the BK 5 equipped fighter fighter opened fire at over 1.66 miles (2670 meters or it continued to fire after it passed by the bomber or it isn't even aiming at a single bomber but trying to spray the entire formation.