Fw-187 could have been German P-51?

[Denniss]

V6 used a closed-circuit evaporative cooling system AFAIR called Dampfkühlung. The 348 mph with DB 600A may or may not be correct, the 601A adds 100 PS and had 4/4.5km rated altitude so the Fw 187 should easily hit 370 mph at ~5km with this engine. I don't have lots of data about the DB 600A but its rated altitude may have been rather low (Bodenlader).
Also many speed calculations are based on 100% engine power and that's the 30 min rating of an engine.

 

[GregP]

The 348 mph was calculated by Focke-Wulf, so SHOULD have been technically correct. What references do you have for the 370 mph?

Using standard aerrodynamic calculations, assuming no increase in drag (maybe not"), I calculate that the Fw 187 that could go 348 mph on a total of 2,120 HP would go 358 mph on 2,316 HP. I am using HP and not cv or ps, but the calculations are the same no matter which unit you use.

And this potentially 358 mph plane was never built as far as I can discover.

I am sure the Fw 187 proponents would rather have had the Fe 187 built as opposed to Bf 110. But looking at it from the point of view oif the RLM, what advantage did the Fw 187 offer that would displace the already in-place jigs and assembly lines that were producing Bf 110's?

Would the new plane be worth the expense? They apparently thought not.

 

[wuzak]

Using standard aerrodynamic calculations, assuming no increase in drag (maybe not"), I calculate that the Fw 187 that could go 348 mph on a total of 2,120 HP would go 358 mph on 2,316 HP. I am using HP and not cv or ps, but the calculations are the same no matter which unit you use.

The difficulty with that estimation is that there may have been a significant critical altitude change between the DB 600A and DB 601.

 

[GregP]

Yes, but I have seen NO references to the 370 mph version in print or on the web, so I am a bit puzzled where it came from.

 

[wuzak]

Yes, but I have seen NO references to the 370 mph version in print or on the web, so I am a bit puzzled where it came from.

I think it was just a guesstimate.

 

[DonL]

Mr GregP,

please show/name this forum the source, sources or photos, that any FW 187 ever flew a DB 600A.
Also please show/name this forum the source, sources of the calculated 348 mph!


Sources about the FW 187 V5 with two DB 601 V40 and V42 with a steam separater.

Focker Wulf sources:

conference Nr.441-187-17: conference about the powerplant FW 187 V5 at 17.08.1939
conference Nr.441-187-20: conference about the Dampfheißkühlung FW 187 V5 at 20.10.1939

note for the file: Dampfheißkühlung FW 187 V5, visitation of Daimler Benz at Focker Wulf Bremen at 13.09.1939 - 23.09.1939

Daimler Benz sources:

1. test report Nr. 10 18 101 425 Focker Wulf Dampfheißkühlung at 19.05.1939
2. test report Nr. 10 18 101 425 Focker Wulf Dampfheißkühlung at 25.05.1939
test report Nr. 10 18 101 544 Dampfheißkühlung FW 187 V5 at 01.08.1939

Please can you tell the Forum, why this original documents from Focker Wulf and Daimler Benz are talking about the FW 187 V5 in association with the Dampfheißkühlung, which you are translating as surface evaporation cooling, which is also incorrect.

Also please can you explain the forum, how it is possible that you give a calculated number (348 mph)from Focker Wulf and there is not any primary source of a DB 600A that was at any time equipped with a FW 187, weather with experimental nor normal cooling.
Also from the describing of the Dampfheißkühlung, no normal DB 600 or DB 601 would has ever functioned with this system. Any engine of this system was in need of a steam seperator, which only had a DB 601 V, M and H, but not any other DB 601 or 600.

I found these data both on the web and in several books I have at home. All my references state the V6 had surface evaporative cooling and all mention the problems with it as well as skin buckling. So while it might be true that the V6 really did not have surface evaporative cooling, I can't prove that with any references I have at this time and they all state it DID have surface evaporative cooling.

Please explain to the Forum, where exactly this skin buckling was, because the FW 187 system had not any surface for evaporation, so how is this skin buckling possible without a evaporation surface

Please show us the sources, because from the original sources I have provided from Mr. Herrmanns Book, there were not such problems, also it was never described as surface evaporation cooling, so please present your sources.

To the rest of you post Nr. 60,
it is completely incorrect and all numbers are completely incorrect from primary sources.

Perhaps SR6, who has also the book about the FW 187,can show you, that your whole claims about the FW 187 are wrong, perhaps you believing him more then me.

 

[wuzak]

Sources about the FW 187 V5 with two DB 601 V40 and V42 with a steam separater.

Focker Wulf sources:

conference Nr.441-187-17: conference about the powerplant FW 187 V5 at 17.08.1939
conference Nr.441-187-20: conference about the Dampfheißkühlung FW 187 V5 at 20.10.1939

note for the file: Dampfheißkühlung FW 187 V5, visitation of Daimler Benz at Focker Wulf Bremen at 13.09.1939 - 23.09.1939

Daimler Benz sources:

1. test report Nr. 10 18 101 425 Focker Wulf Dampfheißkühlung at 19.05.1939
2. test report Nr. 10 18 101 425 Focker Wulf Dampfheißkühlung at 25.05.1939
test report Nr. 10 18 101 544 Dampfheißkühlung FW 187 V5 at 01.08.1939

Please can you tell the Forum, why this original documents from Focker Wulf and Daimler Benz are talking about the FW 187 V5 in association with the Dampfheißkühlung, which you are translating as surface evaporation cooling, which is also incorrect.

I don't think Greg translated that term, but is relying on sources he has and on others, like Denniss:

V6 used a closed-circuit evaporative cooling system AFAIR called Dampfkühlung.

I don't have the book, and I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks. Does it contain a diagram of the cooling system?

If so, are you able to scan that diagram and post it here? I would be interested to see what it looks like.

 

[GregP]

Hi DonL,

First, if you go back and read it, I didn't mention ANY tail numbers, so where does THAT statement come from? Out of thin air?

For the rest, if you go to

Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,
Focke Wulf Ta 152 - Luftwaffe Resource Center, Focke-Wulf Fw 187 Falke "Falcon", Focke-Wulf Fw 187 Falke (Falcon)

you can read the figures for yourself.

If you read "The Great Book of Fighters" by William Green and Gordon Swanborough, the speed is listed at 329 mph for the A-0, which is, after all, the only production version.

If you look in the Encyclopedia of Aircraft by Robert Jackson, the speed for the Fw 187 is listed at 329 mph.

If you look at "German Aircraft of WWII in Colour" by Kenneth Munson, the speed is listed at 329 mph for the A-0.

I have about 5 – 6 more books that say the same, but you get the idea and three is enough even if you don't think so. I really don't care about the performance of prototypes that are unarmed or specially modified for speed. They are not production aircraft. The only three production Fw 187's were 329 mph aircraft at FULL POWER and so we know they were slower than that at cruise and normal operations. Nobody operates at full speed in normal circumstances.

All the sources above cite surface evaporative cooling with major problems for the V6, which was the fast one. As for the 348 mph, sign onto Google and look for it. I did and found it easily in the first several listings. Surface evaporative cooling doesn't mean tubes on the wing, it mean tubes on a surface, even if the surface is internal.

The fast Fw 187 V6 DID have surface evaporative cooling and DID have major issues including skin buckling. It also wasn't proceeded with, so the likelihood of it being a world beater is zero.

I'm not attacking YOU. Just stating the facts as they appear in references to which I have access. These references amount to more than 10 listings, all of which state the speed as less than the Bf 110, so it is no wonder why the RLM didn't proceed with the Fw 187, neat though it seems.

Given the performance in combat of the Bf 110, maybe they SHOULD have. Anything close might have been better ... but I wasn't there and don't know for sure what qualities the Fw 187 had that were better than the Bf 110 other than it definitely LOOKED better.

 

[wuzak]

FWIW, Google translates the term "Dampfheißkühlung" to mean "Hot steam cooling".

 

[DonL]

Hi DonL,

First, if you go back and read it, I didn't mention ANY tail numbers, so where does THAT statement come from? Out of thin air?

For the rest, if you go to

Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,
Focke Wulf Ta 152 - Luftwaffe Resource Center, Focke-Wulf Fw 187 Falke "Falcon", Focke-Wulf Fw 187 Falke (Falcon)

you can read the figures for yourself.

If you read "The Great Book of Fighters" by William Green and Gordon Swanborough, the speed is listed at 329 mph for the A-0, which is, after all, the only production version.

If you look in the Encyclopedia of Aircraft by Robert Jackson, the speed for the Fw 187 is listed at 329 mph.

If you look at "German Aircraft of WWII in Colour" by Kenneth Munson, the speed is listed at 329 mph for the A-0.

I have about 5 – 6 more books that say the same, but you get the idea and three is enough even if you don't think so. I really don't care about the performance of prototypes that are unarmed or specially modified for speed. They are not production aircraft. The only three production Fw 187's were 329 mph aircraft at FULL POWER and so we know they were slower than that at cruise and normal operations. Nobody operates at full speed in normal circumstances.

All the sources above cite surface evaporative cooling with major problems for the V6, which was the fast one. As for the 348 mph, sign onto Google and look for it. I did and found it easily in the first several listings. Surface evaporative cooling doesn't mean tubes on the wing, it mean tubes on a surface, even if the surface is internal.

The fast Fw 187 V6 DID have surface evaporative cooling and DID have major issues including skin buckling. It also wasn't proceeded with, so the likelihood of it being a world beater is zero.

I'm not attacking YOU. Just stating the facts as they appear in references to which I have access. These references amount to more than 10 listings, all of which state the speed as less than the Bf 110, so it is no wonder why the RLM didn't proceed with the Fw 187, neat though it seems.

You are posting claims without any references!
Are in your books any citations or cross references to original documents, engineering specifications or photos?
Please show us the link to the 348 mph for a normal cooling FW 187 V6 with DB 600 engines and a reference, that it was an estimation from Focker Wulf.
Also you should explain how on earth a surface for evaporation can be internal.
The book from Mr. Herrmann is basing on original documents which he provided in his book, also on photos of the several a/c's with identification number and close engine photos also with identification number.

I don't have the book, and I won't be able to get it for a couple of weeks. Does it contain a diagram of the cooling system?

If so, are you able to scan that diagram and post it here? I would be interested to see what it looks like.

Hallo wuzak, yes there is a diagram of the Dampfheißkühlung in this book, also a very detailed explanation and an original engineering specifications of the Db 601 engines with the steam seperator and also a describing of the cooling system.

Sorry I have no scanner, but Stona scanned some photos of the book and posted them in this thread (Photo of the FW 187 V5 and it's radiators), perhaps he can scan the cooling diagram for you

 

[GregP]

I gave you references. Read them. I know you haven't. None are from Focke-Wulf, but only the Focke-Wulf documents are from Focke-Wulf. So what? Prove it wrong. I don't have the original documents and neither do you ... only a book with references to Focke-Wulf documents. You have a book. So do I. Several, in fact. Prove to me than one book on the subject is better than another. I'm not quoting the citations from ANY book I own. The book is the reference. Get it and look for the citations if you like. I might even send you one if you ask.

How fast WAS the Fw 187 A-0 in your references and what references are they? It was the only production plane of the series. My references, more than 10, say 329 mph. What do yours say? Lest you take exception to the speed, 329 mph is 529 kph.

If different, we can talk. If not, what is your point? Prototypes are not relevant to production planes unless they are basically similar and similarly equipped. The plane was not proceeded with for a reason, and the Germans were NEEDING a reason to get better.

The German procurement arm didn't think the Fw 187 was the way to do it in a time of dire need, but YOU do? Support you claim, like you ask me to do. Nine aircraft certainly won't beat the UK or the Allies.

And ONE fast plane isn't a production item. I mentioned the High Speed Spitrfire and was shouted down as it wasn't a real figher. True. The Fw 187 V6 ALSO wasn't a real fighter, so is equally irrelevant to the subject of fighters as the High Speed Spitfire is.

The only relevant Fw 187 is the Fw 187 A-0, and it was not as good as the Bf 110 according to the German RLM at the time.

 

[DonL]

I gave you references. Read them. I know you haven't. None are from Focke-Wulf, but only the Focke-Wulf documents are from Focke-Wulf. So what? Prove it wrong. I don't have the original documents and neither do you ... only a book with references to Focke-Wulf documents. You have a book. So do I. Several, in fact. Prove to me than one book on the subject is better than another.

A book with original documents from flight tests, engineering specifications, test reports, datasheets and hundreds of original photos is not better on the subject then books or Websites without any references?
Are you serious or is this a joke?

How fast WAS the Fw 187 A-0 in your refernces and what references are they? It was the only production plane of the series? My references say 329 mph. What do yours say? Lest you take exception to the speed, 329 mph is 529 kph.

The original datasheet from Focker Wulf for the FW 187 V4, which was the base of the A0 preproduction series gave 545 km/h or 338 mph.
Kennblatt 131 from the original enineering specification

As for the 348 mph, sign onto Google and look for it. I did and found it easily in the first several listings. Surface evaporative cooling doesn't mean tubes on the wing, it mean tubes on a surface, even if the surface is internal.

Where is your link to this issue and reference, that it was a estimation from Focker Wulf?

 

[Denniss]

Both the german end english Wiki articles are in bad shape because either contains almost no credible information or lots of BS. And please don't trust works from Green as they usually contain lots of misinformation. Sadly many authors copied Greens version into their own books/magazines.
The book named by DonL is THE reference for the Fw 187 - consider most others as outdated (or rubbish).

 

[tomo pauk]

Heya, Dennis, care to correct the Walter Sagita article in English Wiki (the cooling type mistake)?

 

[Shortround6]

In looking through the book it helps some and is also confusing at certain points.

The DB engines used some sort of cooling that allowed the creation of steam, ( so did the Merlin and Allison but to a lesser extent?). Items called "condensers" were used but NO pictures or diagrams of ANY wing surfaces are in the book (unlike the HE 100)
There are pictures of ""condensers"/radiators underneath the engine that are almost as long as the cylinder blocks, pictures show engine uncowled. Test rigs were built that allowed the tilting of the engine and cooling system to different angles. Cooling system appears to be in unit with the engine.

There may have been wing buckling on an early prototype but as only one airframe ( work number 1976) seem to have been built and flown with the DB engines, this may be in error or the wing buckling may have been unrelated to the cooling system (early P-36s had problems with wing buckling and used air cooled engines). Other airframes had DB engines but none were completed. One or more were used as test rigs.

Performance figures are a bit of a problem. While the V4 is listed at 545kph with the Jumo engines it carried only two MG 17mgs instead of the 4 mgs used in the A-0 series. Both had the 20mm guns. A few kph loss due to the extra guns?

Speed for the V5 with the Daimler engines is given as 635kph at "low level" whatever that is. The engines were NOT standard DB 601s but a model known as the DB601H .
The specification sheet in the book for the DB 601H engine gives 1350ps at sea level for 1 minute and 1320ps at 4800 meters at 2700rpm. 1200ps at both 0 and 4900meters for 5 min at 2500 rpm.

According to the book the V6 was a Jumo powered airframe. and the V5 is the ONLY DB powered plane to fly. There are 3 pictures of the V5, one from the front, one side and one rear but the angles don't really allow the gun muzzles/troughs to be seen so you can't tell if the they are there or not. In a picture of the V7 Daimer airframe test rig (never flown) a single machine fairing can be seen and appears to be the lower one or in the position of the lower gun on the 4 mg fighters. The upper, more prominent fairing is missing. Since the airframe was never finished this may not be conclusive although the cockpit area seems done.

A later specification sheet for a FW 187 using a "normal" (or not?) DB 605 engines gives the following performance.

547kph at 0 meters using 1310hp per engine
632kph at 3300 meters using 1450hp per engine
682kph at 7100 meters using 1290hp per engine
658kph at 9000 meters using 980hp per engine.

This is using a DB 605 A-C (?) rated at 1475hp at 2800rpm for take-off and 1310hp at 2600rpm climb and combat power at low level and 1350hp at 2600rpm climb and combat power at 7000 meters.

The book says HP and not PS so I don't know if this is a translation fault from the German edition to the English edition or what is going on. Power figures and altitudes don't seem to line up with engine charts on Kurfurst site but may include RAM while the engine charts do not?
The FW 187 "C" was to carry over 160kg of armor and 4 20mm MG 151s with 250rpg and two MG 131s and a MG 81.

 

[DonL]

Hello SR6,

thank you very much for your post!

I have some questions to your post, to clarify perhaps differences between the german and english edition of Mr. Herrmanns book.
I would be very pleased if we can sort it out and get real facts.

Speed for the V5 with the Daimler engines is given as 635kph at "low level" whatever that is. The engines were NOT standard DB 601s but a model known as the DB601H .
The specification sheet in the book for the DB 601H engine gives 1350ps at sea level for 1 minute and 1320ps at 4800 meters at 2700rpm. 1200ps at both 0 and 4900meters for 5 min at 2500 rpm.

At my german edition on page 78 is written:
The V5 was equipped with the DB 601 V40 and V42, which were basing on the DB 601A with 1100 PS.
Later developments were going from DB 601 V to H to M.
Can you confirm this for the english edition?

Speed for the V5 with the Daimler engines is given as 635kph at "low level" whatever that is.

In the german edition is written 635km/h in Bodennähe. Bodennähe can be translated near ground or as technical term sea level.

A later specification sheet for a FW 187 using a "normal" (or not?) DB 605 engines gives the following performance.

At my german edition is written on page 104:
Offen wird bei der Motornennung für die FW 187 von Me 210 Triebwerken gesprochen.
It was planed to equip the FW 187 with the powerplant of the Me 210.

At page 126:
It was planed to equip the FW 187 C with the powerplant of the Me 210, but there were certain issues from the Technischen Amt.
So the FW 187 C should be equiped with DB 605 engines from the Bf 109 G.
Can you confirm this for the english edition?

So to me it looks like, the FW 187 should be equipped with absolute normal DB 605 engines.

Edit:

The book says HP and not PS so I don't know if this is a translation fault from the German edition to the English edition or what is going on.

All your written numbers are PS in the german version, so I think it is a translation problem.

 

[Shortround6]

In the English edition the passage " The V5 was equipped with the DB 601 V40 and V42, which were basing on the DB 601A with 1100 PS." appears on page 77 and says HP instead of PS. I fear this may be a common problem in the English edition.

"Later developments were going from DB 601 V to H to M." are with hot steam cooling. Since the V5 used the hot steam system ( or appears to, given the condensers) which engine was it using? The following page (78 ) ends the paragraph that started on page 77 with the sentence " These DB 601 engines were capable of producing 1,350h.p. for one minute at ground level."

The next paragraph starts with the sentence " Initial flight trials with the Fw 187 revealed a maximum speed of 635km/h at low level." followed by the sentence " The V5's performace made a good impression on the RLM." No further mention is made of engine type or performance.

we are left wondering what does " DB 601 V40 and V42, which were basing on the DB 601A with 1100 PS." mean? as one can claim that the DB 605 was based on the DB 601 or we could claim that the early steam cooled engines in the Fw 187 were of 1100PS and it was future planed developments that would give 1350PS.

The book doesn't give any lower power figure for the steam cooled engines. Doesn't mean they didn't exist though.

On Page 104 I can find the sentence " There was even talk of using the Me 210 plants for the Fw 187." which I guess is close enough.

on page 126 I find, after a list of contracts;
" It was initially planned to use the Daimler Benz DB 605 power plants of the Me 210 to power the the Fw 187 production series. Various officials in the Technische Amt complained, however, and a decision was made to use the Bf 109G power plant also a DB 605. This meant that Focke Wulf would have to modify or redesign much of the engine cowling".

Now this is going on in the Summer of 1942 with planned production (pre-production) starting in the spring of 1943. The power figures I gave for the DB 605 come from page 118 ( the type sheet) and don't match at altitude ANY DB 605 engine that was available (in service) before 1944. To get the power in the chart you need the model/s DB 605 using the supercharger from the DB 603 engine. Not impossible but what time lines are we working with?

A "standard" DB 605 A engine was good for 1250PS at 5800 meters as 2600rpm not 1350ps/hp at 7000 meters, RAM will only do so much. Or perhaps Fw was counting in the exhaust thrust power? the type sheet does not say although the earlier one for the Jumo 210 powered plane does (sort of, it give the engine power but notes performance figures were calculated using RAM and exhaust thrust).

While I think the book offers a lot of good information it also fails to clear up a number of questions.

 

[tomo pauk]

If I may add 2 cents. SR6 is right on the money here:

Power figures and altitudes don't seem to line up with engine charts on Kurfurst site but may include RAM while the engine charts do not?

The tables for specific airplanes list high speeds at altitude, while using so many PS there - ie. the engine is using as much ram as possible. The engine charts are for stationary engines, ie. no ram. For example, the data sheet for the Bf-109F-4 gives full throttle height at 6 km (Steig Kampfleistung, 1185 PS, VH (VolldruckHohe - full throttle altitude) 6 km, 635 km/h; here), while the graph for the DB-601E gives the FTH for the same power setting at 4,9 km (here).
Similar stuff is for the Bf-109s with DB-605A - FTH was at 5,7 km (as it can be read at engine-related tables charts), while the max speed was achieved at some 7 km (as found in tests and kennblats). So, our Fw-187'C' would indeed have 1350 PS at 7 km, but only with full ram, ie. at max speed.

 

[DonL]

Here is a data sheet from a Rechlin testflight of a Bf 109 G6 with a normal DB 605 A

Kurfürst - Bf 109G-6 / DB 605 A

At the begiining of the sheet their are some static engine performance figures.

1260 PS at 1,30 ata 2600 U/min at 5,5km altitude
1355 PS at 1,42 ata 2800 U/min at 5,7km altitude

The graph of the test flight shows that the Bf 109 G6 reached it's max speed between 6,5 to 7km with 1,30 and 1,42 ata and full ram.

So to me the data's from the FW 187 C datasheet on page 118 are very near to the performance of the Bf 109 G6, but as SR6 correctly posted, the data sheet of the FW 187 C are 2 x 1350PS with ram (german edition: mit Stauerhöhung) at 1,3 ata, 2600 U/min and 7km altitude.
I think this should be 1,42 ata at 2800 U/min to be correct

 

[Shortround6]

Thank you Tomo.
It appears that the DB 605 version may have been able to make the claimed power at altitude after all. My mistake.

I am left wondering why the discrepancies in speed however.

466kph a 0 meters for the Jumo 210 version , 635kph for the steam cooled DB 601 version and 547kmh for the DB 605 version, except the DB 605 version may be carrying 1000kg of bomb/s external. One chart does claim a max speed of 670kph at 8000 meters WITH a 1000 kg bomb.