Fw-187 could have been German P-51?

[wiking85]

During the later stages of WW2 the P-51D gave the USAAF a serious speed advantage over the LW, which was used to massacre what remained of the Jagdwaffe in early 1944; the Germans lacked a similar high speed, long range air superiority fighter during the Battle of Britain, so experienced what the USAAF felt in 1942-43 over Germany. However, when looking back at some German forum topics on the Fw-187 and the several on this board about the projected speed and range for a single seat long range escort/air superiority fighter version of the Fw-187 with DB601A engines, it would seem that they would have an aircraft with a similar or greater speed advantage over British fighters in 1940; It was suggested here that the top speed of the Fw-187 would be 387mph, while the Spitfire Mark IIa was only 357mph with 100 octane fuel (but not WEP). So with the Fw-187s might not the Luftwaffe have had its Mustang to attrit RAF fighter command?

 

[SHOOTER]

I have several questions about this idea;
1. How was the potential speed of the Fw-187 with DB-601s computed. (I suspect the results are low. 393 Minimum. Possibly more, much more, ~423, depending on what your criteria are.)
2. Because of the much longer range of the FW-187, I suspect that the "Effective" speed would have been much higher in relation to the other combatants. In that the Fw-187 Pilot could have used much larger throttle openings that were other wise restricted, due to fuel shortages.

 

[wiking85]

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/effect-operational-fw187s-during-battle-britain-35707.html
Die Focke - Wulf FW 187 Falke
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/1940-luftwaffes-ideal-heavy-fighter-33697.html

 

[davebender]

However the Fw-187 was lighter and therefore offered superior performance with similar engine hp. Fw-187 was also less expensive to mass produce.

 

[drgondog]

How much internal fuel capacity?

 

[DonL]

How much internal fuel capacity?

1100 Liter as A and B (first version with DB 601 engines)version .
As we habe seen from Dietmar Hermann's book the later version had 1300 Liter.
Also the FW 187 with DB 605 engines had the possibility to carry a 900 Liter drop tank!

For the speed of the FW 187, here are a very sophisticated calculated image of the top speed of the FW 187 with different engines and normal (similar to the Bf 110) cooling.

And yes to my opinion the FW 187 was and could have been a german P-51 next to the Ta 152H, but 5 years earlier and
also the best possible german interceptor against a Mosquito. The FW 187 with DB 601 engines could be in mass production beginning 1939.

The possible speed of a FW 187 with DB 601A engines was between 380 to 385 mph, with the DB 601E engine it would be about 420 mph.
The depth of penetration was with 1100 Liter 620km with 30min Steig und Kampfleistung as reserve over enemy territory, with 1300Liter is was 830km with 30 min Steig und Kampfleistung as reserve over enemy territory.
(Take of, landing, rolling and climb are included in this numbers)

 

[GregP]

The Fw 187 might have been sorry to catch a Spitrfire. If it got into a turning fight the Spitfire would eat it alive.

So the correct tactics, from the German side, would be to ambush the Spitfires from higher altitude and keep going, being satisfied with the results of the first pass. In this manner, it might have worked for a few times, but British early warning would soon erode that tactic sufficiently to make continued use of ambush over the UK untennable.

I don't think it would have worked for long, but would have been interesting for a time, though to atrit the enemy, you have to have more of what you are fighting with than your enemy does of what you are killing. To have more Fw 187's than the Brits had Spitfires, something else would have to suffer a production loss, and what effect would THAT have had when the Fw 187's proved no match for later Spitfires?

I don't know.

An interesting premise, however.

 

[DonL]

Nobody has to go in a turn fight!

Weather the Bf 109 nor the FW 190 were turn fighter or were flown to turn fight with a Spitfire.
From german tests at Rechlin the FW 187 was as agile (turn and roll) as the Bf 109 but much faster with the same engines.
Also the FW 187 was from tests at Rechlin much more easy to fly to the sticks at high speed as the BF 109, more similar to the FW 190.
A FW 187 with a fighter configuration and DB 601 E engines would weight around 6000kg compare to 2700PS horsepower and a formidable aerodynamic.
Such an a/c would be in climb, dive and max speed more then compatetive to any Spit V and SpitIiX and must not go in a turn fight with a Spit.
Boom and zoom would be the tactic, the same as every F6F against a Zero, or do you want to tell us, a F6F was flown to turn fight with a Zero?

 

[GregP]

The F6F WAS flown in turning fights with the Zeros until they learned not to do so for more than 3/4 of a turn, DonL. Read the history.

The Fw 187 might well have been a good one. It also might have been another Bf 110. The jury is out and the facts will never come forth since it was not proceeded with ... might have been a good choice, but also might not have been.

The only two twin engine fighters that were really successful in the real sense on the word were the P-38 and the Mosquito and the Fw 187 was about 80 mph slower than the P-38 or the Mosquito. It might have made the grade and might not. The WHirlwind seems like a better choice to me, but it wasn't German and so was not possible.

 

[DonL]

The F6F WAS flown in turning fights with the Zeros until they learned not to do so for more than 3/4 of a turn, DonL. Read the history.

The Fw 187 might well have been a good one. It also might have been another Bf 110. The jury is out and the facts will never come forth since it was not proceeded with ... might have been a good choice, but also might not have been.

The only two twin engine fighters that were really successful in the real sense on the word were the P-38 and the Mosquito and the Fw 187 was about 80 mph slower than the P-38 or the Mosquito. It might have made the grade and might not. The WHirlwind seems like a better choice to me, but it wasn't German and so was not possible.

Can you explain, how the FW 187 V5 (with engines similar to the DB 601A) clocked 630 km/h or 392 mph at 1000m (near sea level) at October 1939?
Which P-38 and Mosquito clocked 392mph near sea level?
So don't do claims which are incorrect!
The aerodynamic quality of the FW 187 is out of question, it is a fact shown from hundreds of test flights with several different engines.

Edit:

The Fw 187 might well have been a good one. It also might have been another Bf 110. The jury is out and the facts will never come forth since it was not proceeded with ... might have been a good choice, but also might not have been.

That's more or less the best joke I have read at this forum

FW 187 V4/A0 with 2 x Jumo 210 G engines.

max speed at sea level: 466km/h
max speed at 4600m : 545 km/h

Bf 110 B with 2 x Jumo 210 G engines:

max speed at sea level: 380km/h
max speed at 4600m : 455 km/h

It looks realy like a second Bf 110!

 

[GregP]

Let'see DonL,

There's here: Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note the performance.

You might check here: Focke Wulf Ta 152 - Luftwaffe Resource Center

Note the performance.

You might check here: Focke-Wulf Fw 187 Falke (Falcon) Heavy Escort Fighter - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft

Note the performance.

So … I don't see anything like you claim in these or other reference sites. I also want performance of the real planes, not projections of things never made. But, if you have the data for a plane that was actually built, please post it.

 

[DonL]

I have a book with primary documents and written from primary sources, I have told this several times.

The FW 187 V5 flew at October 1939 and clocked 392 mph near sea level! That's from primary sources!

Focke-Wulf FW 187: An Illustrated History: Dietmar Harmann: 9780764318719: Amazon.com: Books

 

[GregP]

Yah DonL,

I believe the Fw 187 V6 made the speed you indicated. But the three production Fw 187's were Fw 187A-0's with the much lower speed of 329 mph or so. The P-38 was 414 or so and the Mosquito was anywhwre from 380 to 425 mph depending on model.

The British also made the "high speed Spifire," but never produced it ... like the Fw 187 V6 was not produced. The high speed Spitfire made a better speed than the Fw 187 V6 and if the two prototypes had met, the outcome would maybe be due to the pilots, not the aircraft. In any case, one was about as fast as the other except for production models, where the Spitfire was at least 30 - 50 mph faster and hit about as hard.

Most Spitfires climbed better than 3,400 feet per minute or so (Fw 187 initial climb rate).

As it happens, the Spitfire went into production and far exceeded early performance. The Fw 187 did not do either but would have been an interesting addition to the war if proceeded with. It seems the Third Reich did not agree with your assessment of the Fw 187, and they were in a position to care about it.

 

[wuzak]

"high speed Spifire,"

The High Speed Spitfire was built for an attempt on the air speed record. It was fitted with a Merlin II (special) rated at 2160hp with +27psi boost @ 3200rpm at sea level. It required special fuel. This when the standard Merlin II was rated at 1030hp @ 16,250ft.

The attempt was abandoned after the Germans took the record with the He 100 and then the Me 209, neither of which had conventional cooling systems. The Me 209 had a total loss evaporative cooling system, with steam exiting the system in flight.

 

[DonL]

Yah DonL,

I believe the Fw 187 V6 made the speed you indicated. But the three production Fw 187's were Fw 187A-0's with the much lower speed of 329 mph or so. The P-38 was 414 or so and the Mosquito was anywhwre from 380 to 425 mph depending on model.

The British also made the "high speed Spifire," but never produced it ... like the Fw 187 V6 was not produced. The high speed Spitfire made a better speed than the Fw 187 V6 and if the two prototypes had met, the outcome would maybe be due to the pilots, not the aircraft. In any case, one was about as fast as the other except for production models, where the Spitfire was at least 30 - 50 mph faster and hit about as hard.

Most Spitfires climbed better than 3,400 feet per minute or so (Fw 187 initial climb rate).

As it happens, the Spitfire went into production and far exceeded early performance. The Fw 187 did not do either but would have been an interesting addition to the war if proceeded with. It seems the Third Reich did not agree with your assessment of the Fw 187, and they were in a position to care about it.

It was the V5! The V6 was a normal preproduction A0!
All estimations of several different further developed FW 187, with several different engines (for example DB 605) came from sophisticated Focker Wulf piston aircraft engineers which had thousands of datas from hundreds of test flights from the FW 187.
Are you a piston aircraft engineer with this datas about the FW 187?
How can you claim you know it better and deny their estimations?

Third Reich did not agree with your assessment of the Fw 187, and they were in a position to care about it

The next joke, the LW was lead from a Junkie and you want to tell he had done rational decisions?
This man was only able to care about himself, he was described as lazy and someone who has not a single clue what he decided.
And Göring was the man who terminated the FW 187.

 

[GregP]

Nice pics, Wuzak.

The Fw 187 V6 was the "fast" unit of the 9 Fw 187's built, and was also a prototype with everything abaondoned for the sake of speed.

I thought it best to bring up the speedy Spitfire for the discussion. It was never built again, as the Fw 187 V6 wasn't.

 

[DonL]

Nice pics, Wuzak.

The Fw 187 V6 was the "fast" unit of the 9 Fw 187's built, and was also a prototype with everything abaondoned for the sake of speed.

I thought it best to bring up the speedy Spitfire for the discussion. It was never built again, as the Fw 187 V6 wasn't.

Wrong and incorrect!

 

[GregP]

No and no again. Support your retort, DonL, the web references don't.

Maybe only Germans know the real facts? Or what? There was ONE fast Fw 187 and it was slower than the fast Spitfire of the time.

Might still have been something to contend with in a real sense if it had been built in numbers, but it wasn't.

 

[DonL]

No and no again. Support your retort, DonL, the web references don't.

Maybe only Germans know the real facts? Or what? There was ONE fast Fw 187 and it was slower than the fast Spitfire of the time.

Might still have been something to contend with in a real sense if it had been built in numbers, but it wasn't.

Oh yes, germans knows the real facts from their own primary sources!
From original documents from Focker Wulf!
Who has built and tested the FW 187? Focker Wulf or any other a/c company at the world?
The FW 187 V5 flew with near normal DB 601 engines with 1100PS each!
The Fw 187 V7 was planed as record a/c (as you call fast FW 187) with the DB 601 R engines and 2500PS each!
That are facts from primary sources.

Focke-Wulf FW 187: An Illustrated History: Dietmar Harmann: 9780764318719: Amazon.com: Books

Are your web references original sources from Focker Wulf?

 

[tomo pauk]

There is no point to compare the Speed Spitfire with any example of the Fw-187 - the Spit used specilly prepared engine with twice the power, unlike the Fw.