swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,030
- Jun 25, 2013
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Interesting. In contrast I have heard that the P-47 had a rather cramped cockpit. Any truth to this?
...However, the Jabos were 1st to use over-boosting in service, 1st by use excess fuel injection as ant-detonant ('C3 einspritz'), and quickly after that the 'simple' overboosting....
I have read in various places that the Bf 109 was so cramped that it affected roll rate in some cases, note some graphs for roll rate state a force value. Big pilots simply couldnt exert enough sideways pressure to get the best from the plane, on the other extreme I have read jokes somewhere on this forum about P47 pilots taking evasive action by jumping around the cockpit, there was a lot of "banter" between P47 and Spitfire pilots when it arrived in UK.Thanks for confirming this first hand drgondog, I had a feeling that what I heard about the P-47 cockpit was untrue.
I have read in various places that the Bf 109 was so cramped that it affected roll rate in some cases, note some graphs for roll rate state a force value. Big pilots simply couldnt exert enough sideways pressure to get the best from the plane, on the other extreme I have read jokes somewhere on this forum about P47 pilots taking evasive action by jumping around the cockpit, there was a lot of "banter" between P47 and Spitfire pilots when it arrived in UK.
...
I have a few questions. Was the C3 system added to all of the above mentioned variants at the factory, or was it a field modification performed on selected machines? Also, what exactly is 'simple' overboosting?
Intersesting stuff. So after the higher octane C3 became available to use with the BMW 801D was the C3 - 'Zusatzeinspritzung' system largely abandoned or was it still in use?
I know some people denigrate the importance of pilot comfort in a combat aircraft, but an uncomfortable pilot will tire more quickly and will be in poorer shape when it times to act.
My understanding is that, once the 'simple' overboosting was tested and found workable, the installation of the 'C3 - Zusatzeinspritzung' was no longer being installed on production A/C. Talk late 1943/early 1944.
BTW - looks like that 'C3 - Zusatzeinspritzung' was used in service predominantly on fighter-bomber variants.
If there is that consensus I don't share it. All machines increase in performance and the FW 190 did. However the early versions had no match on the allied side, the later versions were circa 2000PS at maximum but the allies had several fighters designed for or developed to that output by 1944/45. Weight was never as important an issue as power, the Spitfire pretty much doubled in weight through the war and no one complained about its weight they were happy with the extra power. It was only in the last days of piston engined planes that weight reduction was addressed as a way to get the last extra drops of performance. The P51H, Bearcat and Fury/Sea fury were all lightened versions of their previous marques (or supposed to be)With the general consensus being that the late-war Focke Wulfs were among the best machines for fighter-versus-fighter combat, I wonder how could an Fw 190D-9, which had its best performance at low-to-medium altitude, combat a La-7, a dedicated low-alt fighter.. maybe even more so than the Dora. It was almost as fast (maybe even faster at sea level?) and had good armament.
But the most striking difference lies in the weights of the two. While having similar dimensions.take-off weight is 3240 kg for La-7 and 4270 kg for D-9, IIRC.
That is a bit more than a ton! So wing loading favors the La-7 as well as power loading: the M-82 gave 1850 PS, the Jumo 213A gave 1750 PS to 2240 PS depending on equipment, setting and fuel. You do the math.
So what tactics the Germans must apply in a dogfight in order to have a chance to prevail?
During 1943, the C3 fuel got increasingly better, eg. this test mentions it as with rich rating of 140 grade (140 PN)....
With the general consensus being that the late-war Focke Wulfs were among the best machines for fighter-versus-fighter combat, I wonder how could an Fw 190D-9, which had its best performance at low-to-medium altitude, combat a La-7, a dedicated low-alt fighter.. maybe even more so than the Dora. It was almost as fast (maybe even faster at sea level?) and had good armament.
But the most striking difference lies in the weights of the two. While having similar dimensions.take-off weight is 3240 kg for La-7 and 4270 kg for D-9, IIRC.
That is a bit more than a ton! So wing loading favors the La-7 as well as power loading: the M-82 gave 1850 PS, the Jumo 213A gave 1750 PS to 2240 PS depending on equipment, setting and fuel. You do the math.
So what tactics the Germans must apply in a dogfight in order to have a chance to prevail?
Thank you for providing the links, they were very informative as was your reply. I will need to go through them again in more detail to understand them completely of course.
So in comparison to the C3 fuels of 1943, what octane ratings were the allies using for their aero engines during this same period?
... and British fuel gave early P-38s fits when they got to the UK because the engines were set up for U.S. fuels.
C-3 was also found to 40% aromatics (!), which is about twice that of British fuels. US fuels were less than 5% aromatics