FW-190 paint and markings question

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by daveT, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. daveT

    daveT Member

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    Questions from the Travis AFB Museum.
    We are trying to build models of the B-24 and FW-190s that were involved in this incident.
    We have the B-24 figured out, but we need the know the correct paint and marking for the FW-190s involved.
    We have a bullet scarred window from the B-24 that was involved and we want to make models of all the aircraft involved. The B-24 was reported shot down by five FW-190s, unknown unit. Lt. Sooy is still alive and well and donated the window recovered from Germany.

    The date of the raid on which Lt Sooy was shot down was 18th March 1944 and the mission number was 53, target Friedrichshafen. Bruce Sooy was the aircraft captain of B-24 numbered 42-99945. The B-24 was from the 578th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), part of the 392nd Bomb Group stationed at Wendling in Norfolk, England. The Squadron Code was EC and the individual aircraft letter was "O" - bar (that meant there was a bar underneath the ID letter). Aircraft were olive drab upper surfaces, much like the model in the Heritage Center, with light gray undersides. The fin and rudder were painted white on the outside surface (except for the de-icing strip on the leading edge) and there was a black stripe painted horizontally of about 3 feet height and on it was a letter "O" in white with a white bar of the same width as the letter beneath it.

    MISSING AIRCREW REPORT: #03327 AIRCRAFT: #42-99945 "PINK LADY" "0-Bar" 23rd Mission
    AIRCREW: SOOY * SQUADRON: 578th
    CREW POSITIONS AND STATUS:
    P 1/LT Sooy, Bruce L. POW
    CP l/LT Mardis, Kenneth A POW
    N 1/LT Jones, Orley R. POW
    B l/LT Schwartz, Edward S. POW
    R/O T/S Terrell, Paul J. POW
    EnG T/S Serafine, John M. POW
    WG S/S McBrayer, Henry G. Jr POW
    BG S/S McArn, Henry W. POW
    WG S/S Jones, Nixon J.E. Jr POW
    TG S/S Dorgan, William J. POW

    MISSION LOSS CIRCUMSTANCES: There were no eye-witness accounts by returning aircrews about the missing status of this plane and crew. The only report of this aircrew’s downing and capture was in a German Report #KU1231, Air Field Headquarters at Freiberg dated 28 March 1944. This reporting noted the crash site of this aircraft by correct tail number at a location of Mühlenbach near Haslach, (30) kilometers north east of Freiberg/Breiagen at 1500 hours and the ensuing capture of all (10) crew members who had parachuted to safety. Cause of the ship’s downing was described as being "fighter", as obtained from a statement by local inhabitants.
    INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTS OF CREWMEN FATES: No record exists in the MACR. All members were taken as prisoners by the Germans. The time of apprehending was given as 1500 hours for all (10) men. Sooy was captured at Hasslach/Kinzig Valley as were McBrayer, Mardis, Schwartz, McArn, Dorgan, Nixon, and Serafine. Jones and Terrell were taken prisoner near Kuehlenbach. This information is all that is available in these records.
     
  2. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #2 stona, Jul 30, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
    Claims for B-24s were made by two Fw 190 equipped units that day. I./JG 11 claimed nine and III./JG 11 claimed 8. I think it must be one of these. The JG 11 'Gefechtsverband' was the most successful formation that day, from a German point of view.

    Someone may have put in a claim for this B-17, but I don't believe it will be possible to identify all of the aircraft which made attacks. A little historical license may be needed with the individual aircraft identifications and 'kennziffer' (codes).

    The Kommandeur of III./JG 11, Hauptmann Anton Hackl, claimed three B-24s at 6000m NE of Freiburg that day bringing his tally to 139. He must be a candidate.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  3. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Untitled.jpg

    Focke Wulf Fw190A-6, Aircraft flown by Gruppenkommandeur Anton Hackl, III./Jagdgeschwader 11, Oldenburg AB, Germany, March 1944.

    Geo
     
  4. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Siegrfried Zick's 190 of III/JG11 as ir appeared on March 23, 1944, close to your date.

    Zick.gif

    Below are are LW claims on B-24s for 18 March as recorded in Greg's list posted here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/luftwaffe-aerial-victory-claims-1939-1945-a-41298-2.html. Suggest you read the thread that goes with this list before taking any firm conclusions.

    18-Mar-44 Fw Norbert Schuecking 1 JG 11 B-24 9.4 Ost N/DR-2: 5000m {E.Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 Fw Norbert Schuecking 1 JG 11 B-24 9.4 Ost N/DQ: 4800m [NE Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 Fw Günther Wiemann 3 JG 11 B-24 DQ: 4800m [Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 Ofhr Gerhard Dreizehner 1 JG 11 B-24 DQ-3: 5000m [Schweighausen]
    18-Mar-44 Ofhr Hans-Eberhard Pehlemann 3 JG 11 B-24 9.4 Ost N/DQ: 4800m [Raum Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 Uffz Süss Süss II. JG 2 B-24 CQ-18: 4000m [SW Strasbourg]
    18-Mar-44 Uffz Lohmeyer Lohmeyer 8 JG 11 B-24 NE Freiburg: 6000m
    18-Mar-44 Ofw Erwin Laskowski 8 JG 11 B-24 NE Freiburg: 6000m
    18-Mar-44 Ofw Erwin Laskowski 8 JG 11 B-24 E. Freiburg: 6000m
    18-Mar-44 Uffz Ratzer Ratzer II. JG 2 B-24 W. Strasbourg: 3500-4000m
    18-Mar-44 Ltn Hans Schrangl Stab I.(J) JG 11 B-24 9.4 Ost N/DQ-8/9: 5500m [Raum Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 Fw Alwin Doppler 2 JG 11 B-24 9.4 Ost N/CR-DR: 4800m [N.Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 Fw Alwin Doppler 2 JG 11 B-24 CQ-DQ: 4800m [Lahr-Emmendingen]
    18-Mar-44 Hptm Kurt Bühligen Stab II. JG 2 B-24 10km SSW Forges: 4000m
    18-Mar-44 Hptm Anton Hackl Stab III. JG 11 B-24 DQ-DP: 6000m
    18-Mar-44 Ltn Helmut Koschack 5 JG 2 B-24 CQ-27: 4000m [Erstein S. Strasbourg]
    18-Mar-44 Uffz Gebhard Wildensteiner 5 JG 2 B-24 N. Strasbourg: 4000m
    18-Mar-44 Uffz Gebhard Wildensteiner 5 JG 2 B-24 20km SW Strasbourg: 4000m
    18-Mar-44 Fw Oskar Born 9.. JG 11 B-24 DR-DS: 5000m [Triberg-Rottweil]
    18-Mar-44 Fw Karl Kampe 5 JG 27 B-24 E. Freiburg: 5000m
    18-Mar-44 Fw Georg Keil 9.. JG 11 B-24 -
    18-Mar-44 Hptm Anton Hackl Stab III. JG 11 B-24 -
    18-Mar-44 Hptm Anton Hackl Stab III. JG 11 B-24 -
    18-Mar-44 Ofhr Buschmann Buschmann Stab JG 11 B-24 DR: 4600m [Raum Treiburg-St. Georgen]
    18-Mar-44 Ltn Franz Lackner 5 JG 2 B-24 CQ-7: 4200m
    18-Mar-44 FhjFw Heinz Hanke 3 JG 11 B-24 GQ-89: 5000m [Raum Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 FhjFw Heinz Hanke 3 JG 11 B-24 9.4 Ost N/DQ-8/9: 5000m [Raum Freiburg]
     
  5. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #5 stona, Jul 31, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
    You can ignore the JG 2 claims. They were made the wrong place at the wrong time and II./JG 2 was flying the Bf 109. They were also based off to the west in France under Jagddivision 5. They attacked the withdrawing bombers after the attacks by JG 11.

    The elements of JG 11 making up the 'Gefechtsverband' that made the successful interception were operating under a new control sector called Jagdabschnitt Mittelrhein. This area had been snipped off the north western corner of Jagddivision 7 and given to the more northerly Jagddivision 3. It lay directly on the route that the 8th Air Force would take to its objectives (Oberpfaffenhofen, Friedrichshafen and other aviation targets in southern Germany) that day.

    Of note this day was that no fewer than 16 bombers headed for Switzerland. 3 were shot down by the Swiss, the rest landed, their crews being interned.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  6. daveT

    daveT Member

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    #6 daveT, Jul 31, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
    Great info. Thank You!

    Most certianly it was JG-11 unit.
    Any more pictures/ drawings of JG-11, FW-190s during March 1944 time period?
    Any more best guess as to which German pilot is the most likely the one who shot down this B-24?

    The locations from the German Claim excel document do not seem to indicate which one.
    The MACR said 30Km from Freiberg, all the claims are 4800-6000m? What does this number mean?
    also what does "Ost N/DQ" mean

    Looking closely at the list, I narrowed it down to three possible based on location N.E. Freiburg

    18-Mar-44 Fw Norbert Schuecking 1 JG 11 B-24 9.4 Ost N/DQ: 4800m [NE Freiburg]
    18-Mar-44 Uffz Lohmeyer Lohmeyer 8 JG 11 B-24 NE Freiburg: 6000m
    18-Mar-44 Ofw Erwin Laskowski 8 JG 11 B-24 NE Freiburg: 6000m
     
  7. daveT

    daveT Member

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    A total of 27 B-24s shot down. I thought I read somewhere that this was the most sucessful downing of bombers by fighters in one raid? Is this true? Is there anything else interesting about this mission/interception?
     
  8. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    4800-6000m is the altitude at which the bomber was flying when attacked, roughly 16,000 to 20,000 feet.

    The other abbreviation is for a position using the Luftwaffe system.

    I believe the most costly raid of the war for the 8th Air Force was the 5th March 1944 raid on Berlin on which 69 bombers were lost (10.2%) and 11 escorts. That's off the top of my head and someone may remember something worse.

    On 18th March the 592nd Bomb Group lost 14 aircraft. The 44th lost another 8. Of the 43 bombers lost by the 8th Air Force that day 22 were from the 14th Combat Wing. These losses are explained by some kind of failure of the plan of attack. For some reason the 14th Combat Wing left Friedrichshafen without any escort. This allowed the JG 11 'verband' to make repeated attacks on the formation. It seems they made a head on attack initially, turned and attacked from the rear and then repeated the process. Many of the Fw 190s made four passes unmolested by US fighters. In the face of fighter opposition even determined units (like JG 11) would often only make one attack before diving away. Some P-38s of the 55th Fighter Group did turn up but the Germans avoided them by staying on the opposite side of the bombers and the Americans were unable to manoeuvre to intercept. The JG 11 pilots initially claimed 19 B-24s and reported no casualties or reportable damage. It was a rare good day for them. It was yet another demonstration, as if one was needed, of the vulnerability of unescorted bombers to fighter attack and their inability to defend themselves effectively in the face of a determined and skilled attack.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  9. daveT

    daveT Member

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    Thank you Steve for insightful analysis.
    I can only imagine what the bomber crews were thinking...
    "We can't keep this up" and "When am I going to get shot down"
     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    a couple things gentlemen there were several missions where bomb groups were devastated the Sturmgruppen for one ripped bg's apart in 44. look at 1943 as such for the Schweinfurth/Regensburg radis and the week of Münster for another.

    really if you want pics and info from the German side you have to have J. Priens JG 1/JG 11 book, an excellent one it is for cross checking plus the fotos as well. again due to the nature of LW attacks from the front many of the claims can be discounted as the Fw pilots fire d on the same A/C. actually March 5th 44 there were losses of 69 bombers not all to LW fighters, the LW lost 43 S/E and 26 T/E. 25 Bf 110G-2's attacked the 305th bg. another nasty mission was Janaury 11, 1944, over 60 bombers lost. during February/March of 44 JG 11 was experimenting with different cannon systems and is in the profile was trying to camo their markings thinking they could get an edge both I. and III. gruppe used the disappearing swastikas and Balkenkereuz. also remember Dave this is the time and the approx area of combat not where the bomber was downed.
     
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