What I remeber from the history of the 11 ArmDiv, there was a hard fight. The air attacks were intensive for the time. The 58th LAA Rgt reported some 70 a/c attacking over a 2 hours period, 10 were Ju 87s, 10 Ju 88s, 6 Ju 188s, 6 Fw 190s, 2 Me 262s, one Ar 234, rest were Bf 109s. If you want to know more, do some digging. There is a new book on these battles, Theirs the Strife, seems to be very good. And of course there is at least the old duvision history, published c. 1946, but it is a good one. Probably Patrick Delaforce has written a more recent one.
Fw 190D and Me 109K vs. Yak-3 and La-7
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What I remeber from the history of the 11 ArmDiv, there was a hard fight. The air attacks were intensive for the time. The 58th LAA Rgt reported some 70 a/c attacking over a 2 hours period, 10 were Ju 87s, 10 Ju 88s, 6 Ju 188s, 6 Fw 190s, 2 Me 262s, one Ar 234, rest were Bf 109s. If you want to know more, do some digging. There is a new book on these battles, Theirs the Strife, seems to be very good. And of course there is at least the old duvision history, published c. 1946, but it is a good one. Probably Patrick Delaforce has written a more recent one.
They attacked from various altitudes. According to Oleg Rastrenin (probably the best expert on everything related to Il-2 and Il-10):
"the most effective attack was at an angle 25-30 degrees from the altitude 700-800 m. The speed at the start of the attack 270-280 km/h. Distance to the target: open fire 600-900 m, stop the fire 250-300 m. Altitude to break the attack 125 m. Minimum safe altitude 50 m. "
My rough translation, this book.
More experienced pilots tried to attack at steeper angles, up to 40 degrees and that required higher altitudes.
Il-10s in spring 1945 attacked from 800-1200 m and escaped at 50-150m.
GregP
Major
If you are based only a short distance away, you'd likely get attacks both outward and returning, but more likely, as you say, returning since they were such a short distance away that any "news" of attacking airplanes was likely too late for incoming engagement unless the defenders were already airborne and in the immediate area. What you said above, Dedalos, makes sense to me. The Soviet fighters also were not stupid and had greatly improved their tactics by late 43 early 44 and were no doubt expecting whatever tactics the Germans used. It would have been "interesting," if not downright deadly. Many Il-2 gunners were killed in returning Il-2 that landed saftely.
Maybe Stalin didn't need for them to be armored as long as the pilot could bring it back. I bet the Gunners didn't see it that way.
Maybe Stalin didn't need for them to be armored as long as the pilot could bring it back. I bet the Gunners didn't see it that way.
Andrew Arthy
Airman 1st Class
Hi,
Given the discussion on Eastern Front combat altitudes, here are some details on engagements involving the 3rd Air Army, 15th Air Army, and VVS KBF over Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in August and September 1944:
P-39s at 1,000 metres on air cover for troops fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 4,000 metres on air cover for troops spotted FW 190s at 1,500-2,000 metres
P-39s at 2,500 metres on air cover for troops fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 2,500 metres on air cover for troops and river crossings fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 400 metres fought with ground-attack FW 190s
P-39s at 1,000 metres on air cover for river crossings fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 1,500 metres on air cover for river crossings fought with ground-attack FW 190s
P-39s at 2,000 metres on reconnaissance met Ju 88
P-39s at 4,000 metres on reconnaissance were attacked by four FW 190s
P-39s at 2,000 metres on Pe-2 escort met FW 190s
P-39s at 1,000 metres on Pe-2 escort met FW 190s
P-39s at 4,000 metres on photographic reconnaissance attacked by FW 190s
Yak-1 at 800 metres on Il-2 escort combat with FW 190s
Yak-7s at 800 metres on Il-2 escort attacked by FW 190s
Yak-7s at 1,000 metres on Il-2 escort fought with FW 190s
Yak-9s at 800 metres on ship cover mission fought with Ju 87s and FW 190s
Yak-9s at 2,700 metres covering landing ships fought with FW 190s
Yak-9s at 1,200 metres on escort for Il-2s fought with FW 190s
Yak-9s at 2,000 metres covering troops fought with ground-attack FW 190s
Yak-9s at 3,000 metres on interception guided by radio station met ground-attack FW 190s
Yak-9s at 800 metres on Il-2 escort attacked by four FW 190s (six Il-2s failed to return)
Yak-9s at 1,800 metres on Pe-2 escort intercepted FW 190s
Yak-9s at 1,800 metres on Il-2 escort intercepted by two FW 190s
Yak-9s at 600-1,200 metres on Il-2 escort fought with FW 190s
LaGG-3s at 1,000 metres on Il-2 escort fought with FW 190s
La-5s at 1,500 metres covering landing boats fought with Ju 87s
La-5 at 2,000 metres on interception attacked an FW 189 without result
The average altitude that claims were made at by FW 190 pilots of I. and II./J.G. 54 against those three Soviet commands in the first fifteen days of August 1944 was 1,854 metres.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Given the discussion on Eastern Front combat altitudes, here are some details on engagements involving the 3rd Air Army, 15th Air Army, and VVS KBF over Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in August and September 1944:
P-39s at 1,000 metres on air cover for troops fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 4,000 metres on air cover for troops spotted FW 190s at 1,500-2,000 metres
P-39s at 2,500 metres on air cover for troops fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 2,500 metres on air cover for troops and river crossings fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 400 metres fought with ground-attack FW 190s
P-39s at 1,000 metres on air cover for river crossings fought with FW 190s
P-39s at 1,500 metres on air cover for river crossings fought with ground-attack FW 190s
P-39s at 2,000 metres on reconnaissance met Ju 88
P-39s at 4,000 metres on reconnaissance were attacked by four FW 190s
P-39s at 2,000 metres on Pe-2 escort met FW 190s
P-39s at 1,000 metres on Pe-2 escort met FW 190s
P-39s at 4,000 metres on photographic reconnaissance attacked by FW 190s
Yak-1 at 800 metres on Il-2 escort combat with FW 190s
Yak-7s at 800 metres on Il-2 escort attacked by FW 190s
Yak-7s at 1,000 metres on Il-2 escort fought with FW 190s
Yak-9s at 800 metres on ship cover mission fought with Ju 87s and FW 190s
Yak-9s at 2,700 metres covering landing ships fought with FW 190s
Yak-9s at 1,200 metres on escort for Il-2s fought with FW 190s
Yak-9s at 2,000 metres covering troops fought with ground-attack FW 190s
Yak-9s at 3,000 metres on interception guided by radio station met ground-attack FW 190s
Yak-9s at 800 metres on Il-2 escort attacked by four FW 190s (six Il-2s failed to return)
Yak-9s at 1,800 metres on Pe-2 escort intercepted FW 190s
Yak-9s at 1,800 metres on Il-2 escort intercepted by two FW 190s
Yak-9s at 600-1,200 metres on Il-2 escort fought with FW 190s
LaGG-3s at 1,000 metres on Il-2 escort fought with FW 190s
La-5s at 1,500 metres covering landing boats fought with Ju 87s
La-5 at 2,000 metres on interception attacked an FW 189 without result
The average altitude that claims were made at by FW 190 pilots of I. and II./J.G. 54 against those three Soviet commands in the first fifteen days of August 1944 was 1,854 metres.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
GregP
Major
Any combat reports on Il-2/10s?
Andrew Arthy
Airman 1st Class
Hi,
Use Google Translate and you can read the whole war diary of Il-2 unit 225.ShAD here: 810 штурмовой авиаполк - ЖБД 1942 г., from 1942 to the end of the war. Attack altitudes are given for many missions.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Use Google Translate and you can read the whole war diary of Il-2 unit 225.ShAD here: 810 штурмовой авиаполк - ЖБД 1942 г., from 1942 to the end of the war. Attack altitudes are given for many missions.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
The Luftwaffe was in a quandary. It needed heavily armoured and armed aircraft to deal with B17/B24 at high altitude and a different aircraft to deal with the P-51/P-47/Spitfire. The situation in the East required aircraft optimised for lower altitudes and the VVS could deploy lighter less armed airframes.
There was a solution: The BMW801F of 2600hp which was intended for both the Fw 190A9 but also the Fw 190A10.
The A10 was meant to be entering production in March 1945 and featured an enlarged wing area. It was deprioritised behind the D series.
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How and for what time frame is the BMW 801F a solution?
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
So, to summarize, the German plan for 1945 was having the Fw 190 A-8/A-9 for dealing with Western bombers, Fw 190D-12/D-13 (and later Ta 152C) to fight Western fighters, and the Fw 190A-10 to deal with VVS fighters at low/medium altitude?
Would have been interesting to know what designs the Germans would have come up with if they had the luxuries of time and resources of the US to deal with the design challenges which all these threats amalgamated into
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- #132
And what would that be?
From carrying drop tanks, extra guns ranging from 7.9mm to 30mm, carrying wide array of bombs & rockets along with drop tank(s), perform as night fighter with on-board radar. Big bombs, up to 1800 kg. Torpedo-armed Fw 190 worked, as well as GM-1 outfitted one. Additional on-board fuel for 190 was a thing, not for La-7. Armored fighter version.
While it was not possible to do all of those things at once (as can be expected), those were workable options for the Fw 190 before La-7 fired shots in anger.
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- #134
So the only thing which is the La-7's claim to fame was its superior dogfighting abilities although with good pilots and the right tactic the Dora could be seen as a fighting machine which was on par. So I understood.
There was a mention in one of the chronicles about the D-9 that since begin of the Battle of Berlin a unit achieved 115 aerial victories and 5 losse.
This is a very good ratio. Anybody know about it?
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SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
Very fearsome opponents indeed. I love the Allied super-props, but it would be interesting to speculate how the planned German stuff would have faired against it with all being equal.
The latest versions of the Fw190/Ta152 would be the final german piston engine fighters. Jets would be the replacements. The most advanced possible german fighter that i can imagine would be
D series fuselage, intergated engine cowling
Ta152 tail with the enlarged control surfaces
Ta 152C wings, (21m2 ), with boosted ailerons and bag type fuel tanks,deformation at high speeds turns deleted
Armament 3x20mm, r4m rockets,
Engines jumo213j or db603n
Such and aircraft would be pretty close to the latest western fighters. But it would still have the obselete wing profile of the originally Fw190( with minor modifications)
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- #137
The final incarnation of the Ta 152 would have featured the big Jumo 222 and a new shorter but larger laminar flow wing. This was abandoned due
to the less problematic Jumo 213 of which the J-version would have reached 2900 HP with MW50 and G3 fuel. Imagine that engine running on Allied high octane 130 or 150 fuel.
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GregP
Major
A nice "what if," to be sure.
The first Junkers Jumo 222 ran 24 Apr 39. Testing went poorly for the Series I and Junkers went to the Series II. By late 1941, Junkers decided to make more radical changes. The Jumo 222C and D models were running at just under 3,000 hp in summer 1942. Only a handful were built. They then went to the Jumo 222 E and F engines, and they could make 1,930 hp at 9,000 m.
Things appeared to be pretty good except that Allied bombing made production almost impossible. The Jumo 222 G and H were only a few prototypes. The Jumo 222 was a massive and costly failure. Only 289 examples were ever built, none of which saw active service. It seriously hampered German engine design from 1940 to 1942. In the end, there was nothing to show for it and the Luftwaffe was flying updated versions of their pre-war engines. It was lucky for the Allies that the Luftwaffe pursued the Jumo 222, and got nothing from it in the end. There would be serious doubt the Ta 152 would ever have used it.
The Jumo 213J was projected to have 2,350 hp and had 4 valves per cylinder rather than 3 valves as had been the case up until the J model. There was not time to get the Jumo 213J into production before the war ended. They built about 9,000 Jumo 213s, most of which were Jumo 213As (1,750 hp or so). It was a good, solid engine, but they only really ever flew about 4,200 of them, most in twin-engine aircraft.
The only German single-seat aircraft that both had some numbers built and used the Jumo 213 were the Fw 190D series and the very small-run Ta 152 series (67 delivered, 2 were flyable at war's end). The Fw 190D series had few vices and very good performance. Somewhere around 700 D models delivered to active units. Other than these, the only single seater using the Jumo 213 was the Messerschmitt Me 209V-6 with a total population of 1.
The first Junkers Jumo 222 ran 24 Apr 39. Testing went poorly for the Series I and Junkers went to the Series II. By late 1941, Junkers decided to make more radical changes. The Jumo 222C and D models were running at just under 3,000 hp in summer 1942. Only a handful were built. They then went to the Jumo 222 E and F engines, and they could make 1,930 hp at 9,000 m.
Things appeared to be pretty good except that Allied bombing made production almost impossible. The Jumo 222 G and H were only a few prototypes. The Jumo 222 was a massive and costly failure. Only 289 examples were ever built, none of which saw active service. It seriously hampered German engine design from 1940 to 1942. In the end, there was nothing to show for it and the Luftwaffe was flying updated versions of their pre-war engines. It was lucky for the Allies that the Luftwaffe pursued the Jumo 222, and got nothing from it in the end. There would be serious doubt the Ta 152 would ever have used it.
The Jumo 213J was projected to have 2,350 hp and had 4 valves per cylinder rather than 3 valves as had been the case up until the J model. There was not time to get the Jumo 213J into production before the war ended. They built about 9,000 Jumo 213s, most of which were Jumo 213As (1,750 hp or so). It was a good, solid engine, but they only really ever flew about 4,200 of them, most in twin-engine aircraft.
The only German single-seat aircraft that both had some numbers built and used the Jumo 213 were the Fw 190D series and the very small-run Ta 152 series (67 delivered, 2 were flyable at war's end). The Fw 190D series had few vices and very good performance. Somewhere around 700 D models delivered to active units. Other than these, the only single seater using the Jumo 213 was the Messerschmitt Me 209V-6 with a total population of 1.
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- #139
I've seen figures for the 213J ranging from 2400 to 2700 HP. But I've asked Calum Douglas, apparently THE authority figure for Allied and Axis piston engines on the Western Front, and he gave the 2900 HP number.
He rated the Jumo 213J as perhaps the best liquid-cooled piston engine of the war and one with the most modern concepts.
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The Jumo 222E/F was scheduled for production in 1944/45. It was performing well enough, passing its tests, at 2800hp on B4+MW50 fuel. The decision was that it would be taken of the production schedule if it couldn't reach 3000hp. These kinds of decisions were often taken when allied troops were inside Germany.
The DB603N was rated at about 2800hp but with C3+MW50 and the Jumo 213J I've seen 2600hp. 2700hp and 2900hp presumably also with C3+MW50.
With these sorts of engines offering 20% more power and even more jet thrust the aircraft would be capable of over 500mph (about 505 for a Ta 152 and 515 for a Fw 190D13/R25. (A Cube Root Law suggests 6% speed increase)
The Jumo 222E/F had a very good multispeed multistage supercharger and despite the the rated power levels being about the same the Jumo 222E/F was probably much better at altitude. It may not have made the aircraft faster because it was a physically larger engine.
I think that's how it would have worked out.
Enlarging a wing can't have been a welcome thing from a manufacturing point of view and perhaps that is why the Fw 190A10 didn't progress as fast as the D9, perhaps they used the wing box and wing of the Ta 152C but retained the tail of the Fw 190A or Fw 190D. A wing enlargement had already been carried out b for the Fw 190A6. The A8 and A9 were getting CoG issues developing with the rear tank and extra nose oil cooler armour (A9) or propeller weights (A8) were added. The Liquid cooled variants created a variant a lot faster with excellent high altitude performance.
There was the Ta 152C with BMW801R. The 801R engine incorporated a two stage 4 speed supercharger with intercooling, aftercooling and a variable pitch cooling fan. (Technology from the BMW 802). The engine, work shop was destroyed and the engine program never recovered. It would have been nice to have an engine that didn't loose coolant after 1 hit.
Focke-Wulf and Heinkel was working on ejection seats for the Ta 152 and 190. They got them to the point that the explosive (instead of compressed air) seat was only 19kg heavier than a normal seat. (In volume three of Smith and Creek) so that would have been added.
I doubt the NACA 5 series wings were a serious impediment to level speed, the profile is still quite good today. I also suspect the Ta 152C didn't have the aeroelastic issues of the Fw 190. I think some software war game writer added that into his simulation by extrapolation I've never seen a report of it. The Ta 152H certainly didn't have it and Focke-Wulf understood it.
Nevertheless the Germans knew of laminar wings and they were used on the BV 155 and I believe the Me 309. Laminar type wings proposed for Do 335 and Ta 152. Probably not worth developing for so little gain in the case of the Ta 152
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