Fw187 could have been German P-38?

[wiking85]

The P-38F -G were able to take off a 2x2000 lbs worth of extra fuel under the wings, or two 2000 lb torpedoes; 2x1325 HP for take off. The Fw-187 with Jumo 211F/J, or DB-601E/605A should be able to equal that payload. Such aircraft itself would've weighted less than P-38F/G/H.

Wouldn't that require some structural strengthening?

 

[wiking85]

True, Tomo, but we also don't know if the size and wing area would have changed when the Fw 187 gained the inevitable weight and went from Ferrari prototype to production workhorse with bigger, heavier engines and armament.

If it HAD gotten bigger, I feel it STILL would have been better than the 110, but I don't know by how much. One things I am sure of, the speed would NOT have been as good as the prototypes once in production ... it never is once everything is added and the producion fit finish are present, but it could sure start from a good point!

The A-0 series was the pre-production one, not prototype, so its weight was pretty indicative of what it would have weighed (and that was with a second crew member and lengthened fuselage, but lighter engines).
Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empty weight: 3,700 kg (8,157 lb)
Loaded weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

But by mid-42, especially with the Me-210 industrial accident, there had to be an opportunity for men of decision...

 

[tomo pauk]

True, Tomo, but we also don't know if the size and wing area would have changed when the Fw 187 gained the inevitable weight and went from Ferrari prototype to production workhorse with bigger, heavier engines and armament.

If it HAD gotten bigger, I feel it STILL would have been better than the 110, but I don't know by how much. One things I am sure of, the speed would NOT have been as good as the prototypes once in production ... it never is once everything is added and the producion fit finish are present, but it could sure start from a good point!

Wing area size was fine as it was in the Juno-outfitted examples; just a bit greater than the P-38.
The Fw-187 saved from the start, vs. the P-38, maybe 500-700 lbs for not being a twin boom aircraft, and 500-600 lbs by not having turbos, 150 lbs by not having tricycle U/C etc. 1200-1500 lbs is quite a bit of dead weight in a ww2 fighter, even if it has two engines.

Wouldn't that require some structural strengthening?

Probably, but not too much for the external carriage. The P-38 went from no drop tanks to 2X300 gal ones (~4000 lbs), while the wing's weight remained almost the same.

 

[Shortround6]

Now as to the 1940 version the radio made no difference historically AFAIK. But in terms of ground attacks the lack of 20mm ammo relative to the Bf110 would be an issue, however a bomb rack equipped version would be pretty damn good at dive bombing and delivering pretty serious ordnance on to targets (IIRC being able to carry 6x 250kg bombs with the DB605, but probably even 4x 250kg bombs with the Db601).

The 110s had the long range radio.

as far as bomb load goes.
Bf 110 C-4/B---Fighter-bomber based on C-4, fitted with a pair of 250 kg (550 lb) ETC 250 bomb racks and upgraded DB 601 Ba engines.
Bf 110 C-7-Fighter-bomber based on C-4/B, two ETC-500 centerline bomb racks capable of carrying two 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs, uprated DB 601P engines.

Bf 110 had about 26% more wing area than the Fw 187. Hurts speed but helps with load lifting.
When hauling bombs outside the number of bombs is as (or more) important than weight. Four 250 KG bombs will have more drag than two 500kg bombs.
Some later 110s used drop tanks on the wing and up to two 500kg bombs under fuselage.

 

[dedalos]

The radio may not have been a big problem for the 109 but if you are planing to penetrate enemy air space by another several hundred kilometers beyond what the 109 could do the radio/s become increasingly important.
Four 7.9 mgs are certainly better than two but the often lambasted 110 carried 3 times the 20mm ammo per gun, at the cost of a second crewman. But then that is what the 2nd crewman in the first 400 Beaufighters did, change drums on the cannon, except he had four cannon to try to keep running (often an impossible task).

What s the benefit of heavy armament if the aircraft does not have the performance or agility to use it?
How useful was for the Bf110 the ability to reload the cannons since the aircraft could not get in firing position against a spitfire?( At least during a classical dogfight)
The Fw187 would have been extremely valuable durig BoB even with the short range radio. He would fight where the Bf109 fought for much longer time plus would reduce pilot loses because of the 2 engines safety

 

[dedalos]

May i extend the original question to inclunde this Machine? the Ta 154C4 sinlge Seat fighter. It should be very competitive with late P38s , altough the tricycle landing gear was Extra weight

 

[wiking85]

View attachment 282059
May i extend the original question to inclunde this Machine? the Ta 154C4 sinlge Seat fighter. It should be very competitive with late P38s , altough the tricycle landing gear was Extra weight

The only problem was that it never became operational due to structural issues (not just the glue problem). The Fw187 was killed by politics, while the Ta-154 was put into production, but never was able to work out its issues.

 

[wiking85]

Need help reading a Bf 110 range chart - Axis History Forum
Looking into the range of the Bf110, it would seem it had much shorter legs than I thought. On internal fuel it could only go about 600 miles depending on the altitude and speed used, while with two external drop tanks it could increase that to 1300 miles. From what I've been able to find about the Bf110 with Db601 engines on just internal fuel it could reach around 1000 miles just on internal fuel, increasing that with drop tanks. So it would seem that the Bf110 was not even all that great of a long range aircraft, as the Bf110 was barely able to go further than the Fw190 on internal fuel.

 

[GrauGeist]

The only problem was that it never became operational due to structural issues (not just the glue problem). The Fw187 was killed by politics, while the Ta-154 was put into production, but never was able to work out its issues.

It wasn't so much "politics" as it was RLM thinking of the day.

They weren't interested in a long range twin engine fighter. They felt the Bf110 was suitable for the role of "heavy fighter" and while the Fw187 may have peaked interest in this role, it was incapable of mounting defensive armament to the rear.

It was also briefly considered for the role of Nachtjager, but it's cockpit was too confined to mount radr equipment, so it was passed over.

So it was RLM's requirements and way of thinking that kept the Fw187 out of the limelight, not politics.

I also saw it mentioned earlier in the thread that the Fw187 might have been useful if it were developed earlier, when in reality, the Fw187 was being developed earlier than the P-38 and even first flew before the P-38 did...

 

[Shortround6]

What s the benefit of heavy armament if the aircraft does not have the performance or agility to use it?
How useful was for the Bf110 the ability to reload the cannons since the aircraft could not get in firing position against a spitfire?( At least during a classical dogfight)
The Fw187 would have been extremely valuable durig BoB even with the short range radio. He would fight where the Bf109 fought for much longer time plus would reduce pilot loses because of the 2 engines safety

Granted the Fw 187 would have been much more valuable than a 110 during the BoB against Spitfires.
Trouble is the Spitfires only make up about 33-40% of the British fighters and if you are flying beyond London (like to Bristol, Manchester or Liverpool) having more than 7 seconds of cannon ammo might be handy.
You also have the problem that the Fw 187 might not be so good at a number of other roles. Shipping strike, shipping protection (Norway convoys), photo recon (where do you stick the cameras without changing the fuel tanks?), ground attack (being able to reload guns in the air?),etc.
Those or missions that needed doing and were being done by 110s before the night fighter situation even comes up.

 

[rogerwilko]

I'd have thought the Fokker GI Reaper a better comparison with it's twin boom configuration?

 

[dedalos]

t

Granted the Fw 187 would have been much more valuable than a 110 during the BoB against Spitfires.

Trouble is the Spitfires only make up about 33-40% of the British fighters and if you are flying beyond London (like to Bristol, Manchester or Liverpool) having more than 7 seconds of cannon ammo might be handy.

7 seconds are enough to explode 2 hurricains and then still 4 mgs available concentrated in the nose

You also have the problem that the Fw 187 might not be so good at a number of other roles. Shipping strike, shipping protection (Norway convoys), photo recon (where do you stick the cameras without changing the fuel tanks?), ground attack (being able to reload guns in the air?),etc.
Those or missions that needed doing and were being done by 110s before the night fighter situation even comes up.

I could argue that the Fw187 could execute most of these missions . But even if the single Seat Fw 187 could not fullfil these missions, it would be enough to secure aerial superiority. Then various other LW aircraft could execute those missions. I would even say that it would be a luxury for the LW to use her best performing long range fighter for secondaries missions. The single absolutely most important Mission is Air superiority. Everything else is a next step. A single Seat ,DB601 equiped Fw 187 appears, on Paper, that would have helped the LW A LOT, in BoB ,in Meditterenean, and over the Biscay Bay

 

[wiking85]

Granted the Fw 187 would have been much more valuable than a 110 during the BoB against Spitfires.
Trouble is the Spitfires only make up about 33-40% of the British fighters and if you are flying beyond London (like to Bristol, Manchester or Liverpool) having more than 7 seconds of cannon ammo might be handy.
You also have the problem that the Fw 187 might not be so good at a number of other roles. Shipping strike, shipping protection (Norway convoys), photo recon (where do you stick the cameras without changing the fuel tanks?), ground attack (being able to reload guns in the air?),etc.
Those or missions that needed doing and were being done by 110s before the night fighter situation even comes up.

In terms of strikes, the Fw187 if capable of handling drop tanks, could handle bombs for strike missions, while the lack of reloadable nose cannon prior to the MG151 would be a minor hinderance. In terms of air superiority and CAP missions the Fw187 would in fact be better due to its longer range and therefore loiter time, while its speed would mean being able to actually win aerial battles, rather than being vulnerable to SE fighters. For photo recon remove the cannons for camera space, same as the Bf110, but with longer range from its internal fuel; drop tanks could be used for range increases if needed, while speed would be higher, therefore more surviveable. I would ask how much strafing the Bf110 did historically prior to the fighter-bomber variant being developed in 1940. Once the bomb equipped version was available cannon strafing matters somewhat less, while once the belt fed cannons are available the reloading point is moot.

 

[GregP]

Can't say the Fw 187 could achieve air superiority unless we know the numbers avaiable. If they had, say, 43 (like the full production run of Ta 152's) then they'd be a non-factor. If they had maybe 350+, perhaps it would have been a different story.

I'm unconvinced the Nazis could have completed quantity production before the BOB. Makes for a good "what if" though, doesn't it?

 

[wiking85]

Can't sya the Fw 187 could achieve air superiority unless we know the numbers avaiable. If they had, say, 43 (like the full production run of Ta 152's) then they'd be a non-factor. If they had maybe 350+, perhaps it would have been a different story.

I'm unconvinced the Nazis could have completed quantity production before the BOB. Makes for a good "what if" though, doesn't it?

If we follow the development/production history of the Bf110 as an example, the Fw187 was about 12 months behind the Bf110. So that would mean serial production about May 1939. From that point on that gives us about 16 months of production before Adlertag. It took about 6 months in peacetime to train up a unit on a new type, but a couple-few months in wartime due to the rush. So how many could be built in 16 months? Several hundred Bf110s were built from September 1939-May 1940, as only ~110 had been built prior to the start of the war and most ZG didn't have any on hand for Poland. I could see having 2-3 Geschwader ready for the BoB.

 

[GregP]

I can't, unless you can convince the Luftwaffe NOT to also build the Bf 110.

 

[Shortround6]

7 seconds are enough to explode 2 hurricains and then still 4 mgs available concentrated in the nose

Not every pilot was an expert.

I could argue that the Fw187 could execute most of these missions . But even if the single Seat Fw 187 could not fullfil these missions, it would be enough to secure aerial superiority. Then various other LW aircraft could execute those missions. I would even say that it would be a luxury for the LW to use her best performing long range fighter for secondaries missions. The single absolutely most important Mission is Air superiority. Everything else is a next step. A single Seat ,DB601 equiped Fw 187 appears, on Paper, that would have helped the LW A LOT, in BoB ,in Meditterenean, and over the Biscay Bay

Bf 110 with camera;

The 110 may have lost it's cannon but a crew member could reach the camera in fight, change film magazine?

For carrying a heavy load both wing area and power help. you can substitute power for wing area but after a while you get into diminishing returns.

You are also expecting an awful lot from a few hundred (or even 4-500) aircraft. You seem to be describing air supremacy, not air superiority.

"Air supremacy is the highest level, where a side holds complete control of the skies."

or "degree of air superiority wherein the opposing air force is incapable of effective interference."

And we are back to the radio problem, sending single seat fighters out hundreds of kilometers from land, unable to contact shore stations/bases or other aircraft in the area is NOT doing the same job the 110s could do.

The Fw 187 would have been a useful addition to the Luftwaffe but it could NOT replace the 110 in all roles.

And if you want a super fighter in 1940 how about just cleanup the aerodynamics of 109?

 

[GrauGeist]

If the RLM had decided the Fw187 would fit in the gap between the Bf109 and the Bf110, then why wouldn't they have been able to produce a certain quantity in the year preceeding the BoB?

German manufacturing was capable of building several different types at the same time...

 

[GregP]

Good point Graugeist. The Luftwaffe itself decided the Fw 187 was not as suitable to meets its needs as other types. Of course, this is the same Luftwaffe that never thopught a strategic bomber was necessary either, so what can you expect? They made some bad choices, and found they couldn't live with them. They weren't the first to be so inept at making good wartime decisions and certainly won't be the last.