Fw187 could have been German P-38?

[stona]

How would the earliest versions of the P-38 have done in 1940 against the RAF's Spitfires and Hurricanes. Obviously you'll need a TARDIS and a time lord to get them there. Not very well I suspect, which begs the question whether you want the Fw 187 to be a German P-38.

Cheers

Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

The early P-38s, the -D and -E, were credited to some 375 mph at 20000 ft (and even above 390mph, but that brings out the problems with intercoolers not having sufficient capacity, hence too high the carburetor temperature), or about the same as the Spitfire V or Bf-109F1/F2. Some 50 mph better than the Bf-110 or Hurricane I. Or about 20 mph better than Spit I or Bf-109E3/E4. The P-38 also featured a far better 'lethality package' than fighters in the BoB. The 'straight P-38' (no suffix) was without s-s tanks, 400 US gals fuel tankage, the s-s tanks were installed with P-38D (300 US gals). The P-38E received 20mm (60 rd drum) instead of 37mm M4 cannon, along with staggered BMGs that enabled ammo for them to be doubled in quantity (500 rpg max). Prior Pearl Harbour there was no drop tanks facility for the P-38s.
All in all, I'd say that the early P-38s would've done just fine vs. Hurricanes, sort a repeat of P-38 vs. Zero situation. Against the Spitfires, it would've offered a thin performance edge above 17-18000 ft, but none under 15000 ft. Problem with any god performing escort fighter is that 'close escort' works against it, the P-38 was no exception - if one wants it to do any good, let it loose on the 'freijagd'.

The Fw-187 with DB 6 on board would save plenty of weight vs. the P-38, and the thing is that Germans did not have a fighter that was capable both to perform AND to have long range, a necessity during the BoB.

 

[The Basket]

By 1940 the Bf110 was still decent enough.
The replacement was the Bf210.
You don't suddenly cancel major defence projects.

 

[Shortround6]

If the RLM had decided the Fw187 would fit in the gap between the Bf109 and the Bf110, then why wouldn't they have been able to produce a certain quantity in the year preceeding the BoB?

German manufacturing was capable of building several different types at the same time...

They were certainly capable of building a number of different types, however were they capable of building a significantly greater total number of engines or thousands of pounds (Kilos) of airframe? Every Fw 187 is one 110 not built or 2 109s not built (roughly)?
Now are 200 FW 187 going cause more damage to the RAF than 400 Bf 109s?
They may very well cause more damage to the RAF than 200 Bf 110s but if they can't perform some of the 110s roles that leaves the Luftwaffe trying to use Ju 88s or Do 17s for those roles with Fw 187 escorts. Doable but perhaps not as efficient? If Fw 187s are escorting shipping strikes or photo recon planes then they are not escorting bombers?

 

[tomo pauk]

We might recall that Focke Wulf did not have a 1st-line aircraft in production service during the 1st two years of the war. Asking from Fw 187s produced in 1939-40 (had that been undertaken) to perform long range escort, recon, shipping/escort strikes, all in the same time, might be asking too much. Just concentrate on long range escort.
If the shipping strikes are undertaken in the Channel area and southern part of North Sea, the Bf-109 can do the escort there. Once the BoB was truly under way, the shipping strikes were relegated to second, if not 3rd priority for the LW.

The 400 Bf-109s cannot do any damage to the RAF if they cannot perform escort further than Kent, or thereabouts. Same problem of insufficient range shared with P-47s and Spitfires in 1943/early 1944 vs. LW in ETO.

 

[spicmart]

The only problem was that it never became operational due to structural issues (not just the glue problem). The Fw187 was killed by politics, while the Ta-154 was put into production, but never was able to work out its issues.

According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.

 

[wiking85]

According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.

Then why wasn't it built considering the vast efforts made to bring it to production? The prototypes kept breaking up during testing and the production investments cancelled and scrapped.
Focke-Wulf Ta 154 â€" Wikipedia
Focke-Wulf Ta 154 â€" Wikipedia

 

[GregP]

The Fw 187 wasn't built by the Germans, who needed just such a fighter. Neither was the Ts 154 and it was needed, too (or something very similar to it). Instead the Luftwaffe soldiered on with the Bf 110 which was a very pleasant aircraft to fly, if not to fight in. It was STILL being flown as a front-line aircraft late in teh war.

I have wondered for years why things happened the way they did and I keep coming back to the same conclusions. The Nazi government and armed services were chiefed by people who had no long range plan and little vision. In this case, long range" meant as little as only 5 years. Had they thought in terms of continuing to fight successfully while developing and fielding new weapons in as little as 2 - 3 years, they would have seen the need for better aircraft, more capable U-boats, and tanks that could travel in Europe and Asis with getting stuck due their own weight.

Many of the German weapons were excellent and were well thought out but almost all of the truly good German items of war materiel were develped at leisure as they were building up to start the war. How many really good weapon systems were developed successfully and fielded after 1942? Even the Me 262 was in development before that time. I can't think of too many weapons that were started, developed, produced, and successfully fielded after the war started going downhill for Germany.

 

[GrauGeist]

They were certainly capable of building a number of different types, however were they capable of building a significantly greater total number of engines or thousands of pounds (Kilos) of airframe? Every Fw 187 is one 110 not built or 2 109s not built (roughly)?
Now are 200 FW 187 going cause more damage to the RAF than 400 Bf 109s?
They may very well cause more damage to the RAF than 200 Bf 110s but if they can't perform some of the 110s roles that leaves the Luftwaffe trying to use Ju 88s or Do 17s for those roles with Fw 187 escorts. Doable but perhaps not as efficient? If Fw 187s are escorting shipping strikes or photo recon planes then they are not escorting bombers?

I don't really follow that logic, to be honest.

If Focke-Wulf produced 200 Fw187 aircraft in time for the BoB, that's 200 more aircraft to participate.

Whether or not Focke-Wulf manufactured these aircraft, Messerschmitt would have still produced the airframes that they did. So would Arado, Blohm und Voss, Heinkel, Junkers, Gotha, Fiesler, Henschel, Bucker, Siebel and so on.

When Focke-Wulf started production of the Fw190, it didn't diminish any other company's output, but supplemented the quantity of available Luftwaffe fighters.

As it stands, the Fw187 used the Jumo210 series engine, which would not have shorted any current front line aircraft during the BoB, as the Stuka was using the 211, Messerschmitt had upgraded their models to the DB6xx series.

 

[wiking85]

The Fw 187 wasn't built by the Germans, who needed just such a fighter. Neither was the Ts 154 and it was needed, too (or something very similar to it). Instead the Luftwaffe soldiered on with the Bf 110 which was a very pleasant aircraft to fly, if not to fight in. It was STILL being flown as a front-line aircraft late in teh war.

I have wondered for years why things happened the way they did and I keep coming back to the same conclusions. The Nazi government and armed services were chiefed by people who had no long range plan and little vision. In this case, long range" meant as little as only 5 years. Had they thought in terms of continuing to fight successfully while developing and fielding new weapons in as little as 2 - 3 years, they would have seen the need for better aircraft, more capable U-boats, and tanks that could travel in Europe and Asis with getting stuck due their own weight.

Many of the German weapons were excellent and were well thought out but almost all of the truly good German items of war materiel were develped at leisure as they were building up to start the war. How many really good weapon systems were developed successfully and fielded after 1942? Even the Me 262 was in development before that time. I can't think of too many weapons that were started, developed, produced, and successfully fielded after the war started going downhill for Germany.

AFAIK Hitler thought the war would be over by the end of 1941 when he started planning Barbarossa, as he genuinely believed the USSR would collapse and Britain would sue for peace once they were beaten. That massively disrupted any rational planning, plus of course general Nazi inefficiency and bureaucratic infighting.

 

[Shortround6]

Well, the 110 was 'supposed' to have succeed by the Me 210 but the provision of an internal bomb bay for a pair of 500kg bombs rather shows what direction they were leaning in, regardless of the eventual outcome and long range escort fighter wasn't it.

In some cases the Germans had too much vision. The competition to the Me 210 being the Arado 240 with pressurized cockpit, a different type of remote control gun barbettes a wing not much bigger than the FW 187 or P-38s for a 20-22,000lb plane with as many high lift devices as they could cram on it. Ducted spinner cooling system, new type of self sealing tanks and oh, yes, it had to have dive brakes and be able to dive bomb

The Germans in 1939-41 seemed to want to try to stuff each and every new device/trick/component in existence in prototype form into every new plane they working on.

Ok a bit of an exaggeration but they seemed to try to jump a generation of aircraft development. Sort of like going from the B-18 bomber to the B-29 without working on the B-17/B-25/B-24 in between.

 

[stona]

If Focke-Wulf produced 200 Fw187 aircraft in time for the BoB, that's 200 more aircraft to participate.

And 200 more pilots?

Steve

 

[wiking85]

Well, the 110 was 'supposed' to have succeed by the Me 210 but the provision of an internal bomb bay for a pair of 500kg bombs rather shows what direction they were leaning in, regardless of the eventual outcome and long range escort fighter wasn't it.

In some cases the Germans had too much vision. The competition to the Me 210 being the Arado 240 with pressurized cockpit, a different type of remote control gun barbettes a wing not much bigger than the FW 187 or P-38s for a 20-22,000lb plane with as many high lift devices as they could cram on it. Ducted spinner cooling system, new type of self sealing tanks and oh, yes, it had to have dive brakes and be able to dive bomb

The Germans in 1939-41 seemed to want to try to stuff each and every new device/trick/component in existence in prototype form into every new plane they working on.

Ok a bit of an exaggeration but they seemed to try to jump a generation of aircraft development. Sort of like going from the B-18 bomber to the B-29 without working on the B-17/B-25/B-24 in between.

That's the thing, the Me210 was only supposed to be a clean up of the Bf110 airframe, rather than a totally new aircraft, but Messerschmitt wanted something special and even personally intervened in the new design, which ultimately compromised it, and presented the RLM with the flawed model that Udet bought.

German tank designs were fraught with that crap too, as the Panther design had all sorts of added features that were not asked for to sell the design, such as a rubberized engine block to enable submerged river crossing, but ended up causing engine fires, including two Panthers lost detraining for the Kursk offensive.

 

[dedalos]

According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.[/QUOTEou

Do you have the Hermann s book for the Tsa 154 ? If yes, does it include performance calculations for the single Seat ,version?

 

[Shortround6]

I don't really follow that logic, to be honest.

If Focke-Wulf produced 200 Fw187 aircraft in time for the BoB, that's 200 more aircraft to participate.

As an Example out of about 647 Bf 109 C-Ds built, only 62 were built by Messerschmitt at Augsburg. Focke-Wolfe built 123, Erla built 168, Fiesler built 80, AGO built 128 and Arado built 144.
While production of 109s at FW tapered off (90 E-1s?) in 1939/40 other factories continued to build the bulk of the 109s. Like Fiesler building around 665 109Es up until the end of Oct 1940 and Arado building 613.
Messerschmitt built around 281Es divided between the Augsburg and Regensburg Factories.

I rather doubt FW had the size factory needed to mass produce the FW 187 in large numbers in 1939/40 as their last mass produced plane of theri own was the FW 44 Stieglitz;

In German fashion Production of the Fw 187 wold have farmed out/shared by several other existing companies. But that means they wouldn't be making what they made historicly.

 

[GregP]

I follow Shortround's logic above. DB 6 engines were in short supply from when they were originally released until sometime well after mid war. If I am not mistaken, the DB engines set the pace of Bf 109 production to a large degree. If that was the case, then one Fw 187 removes two Bf 109s, even if the airframes are ready and waiting for an engine.

The Luftwaffe was already short of Bf 109s in the BOB, and several hundred fewer would not be a good thing for the Luftwaffe.

If WOULD have been a good thing to build early Fw 187s if other things could have remained as they really happened, but I agree with Shortround. If they HAD built production Fw 187s, something else powered by the Db 6 enginers would have HAD to suffer. The Luftwaffe was already committed to the Bf 109 and Bf 110 (they were also committed to the Fw 190 but it didn't use a Db 6, at least not at that time), and the Bf 110 had yet to prove itself a less than wonderful heavy fighter when coming up aginast agile single seaters, so what would possibly be the incentive to dump either the Bf 109 OR the Bf 110 in favor of the Fw 187 in the timeframe we are discussing?

I think the ONLY way to have done it would have been with a dose of hindsight which, as we are all probably painfully aware in out own lives, is usually in critically short supply just when it is needed.

Where the hell did those green things come from? I was trying to type DB 6 0 X, without the spaces.

 

[GrauGeist]

I follow Shortround's logic above. DB 6 engines were in short supply from when they were originally released until sometime well after mid war. If I am not mistaken, the DB engines set the pace of Bf 109 production to a large degree. If that was the case, then one Fw 187 removes two Bf 109s, even if the airframes are ready and waiting for an engine.

The Luftwaffe was already short of Bf 109s in the BOB, and several hundred fewer would not be a good thing for the Luftwaffe.

If WOULD have been a good thing to build early Fw 187s if other things could have remained as they really happened, but I agree with Shortround. If they HAD built production Fw 187s, something else powered by the Db 6 enginers would have HAD to suffer. The Luftwaffe was already committed to the Bf 109 and Bf 110 (they were also committed to the Fw 190 but it didn't use a Db 6, at least not at that time), and the Bf 110 had yet to prove itself a less than wonderful heavy fighter when coming up aginast agile single seaters, so what would possibly be the incentive to dump either the Bf 109 OR the Bf 110 in favor of the Fw 187 in the timeframe we are discussing?

I think the ONLY way to have done it would have been with a dose of hindsight which, as we are all probably painfully aware in out own lives, is usually in critically short supply just when it is needed.

Where the hell did those green things come from? I was trying to type DB 6 0 X, without the spaces.

The Fw187 used Jumo210G engines, not Daimler-Benz 6 series engines...

 

[Shortround6]

The Fw187 used Jumo210G engines, not Daimler-Benz 6 series engines...

It did because of the shortage of DB601 engines. It was designed to use DB60? engines but was fitted with the Jumo because of the shortage. While performance was good with the Jumos it wasn't good enough to change the air war the way it's proponents are hoping for. It needs the extra 3-400hp per engine to turn it into the Spitfire beater

 

[wiking85]

If WOULD have been a good thing to build early Fw 187s if other things could have remained as they really happened, but I agree with Shortround. If they HAD built production Fw 187s, something else powered by the Db 6 enginers would have HAD to suffer. The Luftwaffe was already committed to the Bf 109 and Bf 110 (they were also committed to the Fw 190 but it didn't use a Db 6, at least not at that time), and the Bf 110 had yet to prove itself a less than wonderful heavy fighter when coming up aginast agile single seaters, so what would possibly be the incentive to dump either the Bf 109 OR the Bf 110 in favor of the Fw 187 in the timeframe we are discussing?

I think the ONLY way to have done it would have been with a dose of hindsight which, as we are all probably painfully aware in out own lives, is usually in critically short supply just when it is needed.

Where the hell did those green things come from? I was trying to type DB 6 0 X, without the spaces.

Here's the thing about the Bf110: it was Goering's baby. The professionals were trying to kill it and replace it with the Fw187, but that effort was killed by Wever's death and the dismantling of his team of technical professionals, instead replaced by Udet, who was horribly incompetent at his job. E.R. Hooton talks about this in the first book in his two book LW series, while Edward Homze talks about this event as the beginning of the long, slow death of the LW, as Goering now ran the show and staffed it with his buddies and sychophants.

 

[spicmart]

According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.[/QUOTEou

Do you have the Hermann s book for the Tsa 154 ? If yes, does it include performance calculations for the single Seat ,version?

I do have this book and will take a look in it the next days. There are also stated the reasons why it did not reach full production iirc.
I have to read the details again and will tell.

At Luftwaffe Experten Message Board there was also quite a discussion about this plane and the circumstances of its failure.
The author Dietmar Hermann is/was also on this board and discussion.