Fw187 could have been German P-38?

[stona]

The Bf 110 was the backbone of the Nachjagd for almost the entire war. The Do 17 made a very poor night fighter in the opinion of most (not all) who flew it. There were no purpose built night fighters available to the Luftwaffe in 1940/41 because they weren't expecting to be bombed by night! They were lucky to have the Bf 110. Eventually another converted bomber, the Ju 88, became a decent night fighter too.

In the mid 1930s the Bf 110 was NOT competing with the Fw 187 as a heavy fighter. It was competing against the Fw 157 and Hs 124 and it was superior in almost every way to both. That's why the RLM ordered it into production.

The Bf 110 didn't fail in its designed role with disastrous consequences, the Luftwaffe attempted to do something it was neither designed to do, nor was it ever capable of doing it. The Bf 110 C had a range of about 500 miles on internal fuel only. Even adding external auxiliary tanks (not the 'Dackelbauch' which contained both fuel and oil, 1050 and 106 litres respectively) meant that extra oil also had to be carried. It was designed for Blitzkrieg in continental Europe, not crossing the North Sea.

From about June 1940 the Luftwaffe saw the Bf 110 first as a fighter bomber and then as a night fighter, not as a 'long range heavy fighter' and the 'dackelbauch' disappeared forever.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

I would like to say something about the night fighting capabilities of the 110. It s a myth that it was very good night fighter. It was better than most of the other available aircraft the germans had but still was mediocre. Clearly inferior to Ju 88R&G. It s performance was barely adequate when fully equiped, its single engine behavior poor,its range short, the cocpit cramped for 3 man crew, its armor rather light. Too slow to catch the mosquito, far inferior than Ju 88 against bombers.
A combination of two Seat Fw187/Ju88 would be far superior.

Some of the highest scoring nachtjager pilots flew the Bf110...look at Schnaufer, for example. Yes, the Ju88 was a good NF, but the Bf110 certainly proved it's worth in that role, which wasn't part of it's original design.

The Fw187 was designed as a fighter, not a bomber and unlike the Bf110, would not have adapted as well due to it's dimensions. The Bf110's cockpit was far larger than the Fw187's, as the 187 had been originally designed as a single-seater. Adding a second crewman aboard the 187 was almost a waste, as there was really nothing for him to do, but add weight, since the configuration of the cockpit-to-fuselage prevented the addition of defensive armament.

I could certainly see the 187 performing photo recon duties, as the camera systems used aboard the Bf109 would have fit in the 187's fuselage/cockpit well enough.

 

[dedalos]

I posted a picture of a camera being carried to a 110. It was decided back in 1938 that the Bf 161 recon plane would not be needed because the Bf 110 could do the job. The camera in the Bf 161 went where the bomb bay for ten 50 kg bombs went on the Bf 162. Alternative roles for the 110 were being thought of well before the BoB.
The 110 was initially designed and built with space for a 3 seat cockpit should 3 seats be needed for a particular role. This did hurt performance but it also means it is going to be that much harder to modify a single seat aircraft to perform those roles. As a fighter it was often flown with only two crew but the space was already there. No fuselage extensions or bulges needed.

Stuka's could NOT do all ground/shipping attack. Do 17Zs with a max speed of 255mph are not going to be able to perform recon missions with the number of losses the 326mph (at same altitude) Bf 110 could (Do 215 could make 289mph at same height but needs the same DB engines). In 1940/early 41 JU-88Cs were based off the Ju 88A-1 bomber with Jumo 211B engines and had rather different performance than the Ju 88C-6 with Jumo 211Js. Part of the difference was made up (if you can call it that) by the C-2 operating at thousands of pounds less weight than the later Ju 88 fighters. This included an armament of ONE 20mmm cannon and 3 mgs firing forward.

I have given 3 examples of the 110 being modified for other roles before it's "failure". Can you give sources that contradict these examples?
NO use of the 110 as a Jabo before the BoB?
The 110 forced down at Goodwin had no camera or the date is wrong?
110Ds with the belly plywood tank were NOT in use in June/July of 1940?

Please read carefully my posts.
I wrote "almost exslusively". I am well aware of the jabo missions.
Also in my second post, i mean that if the 110 had succed in its job of clearing the skies there woulb be no reason to perform other duties. It would be safe for the ju87,Do17,He 111 etc do their job.By taking over the duties of the specialized ground attack aircrafts was because of the reality and the succes was limited.

 

[wiking85]

Some of the highest scoring nachtjager pilots flew the Bf110...look at Schnaufer, for example. Yes, the Ju88 was a good NF, but the Bf110 certainly proved it's worth in that role, which wasn't part of it's original design.

The Fw187 was designed as a fighter, not a bomber and unlike the Bf110, would not have adapted as well due to it's dimensions. The Bf110's cockpit was far larger than the Fw187's, as the 187 had been originally designed as a single-seater. Adding a second crewman aboard the 187 was almost a waste, as there was really nothing for him to do, but add weight, since the configuration of the cockpit-to-fuselage prevented the addition of defensive armament.

I could certainly see the 187 performing photo recon duties, as the camera systems used aboard the Bf109 would have fit in the 187's fuselage/cockpit well enough.

The second crew member for the 187 would control the larger radio that had longer range than the Me109. Then there is the Fw187C with a larger cockpit and fuselage that upped the fuel tank size and enabled it to carry significant bomb loads externally.

 

[dedalos]

t

Some of the highest scoring nachtjager pilots flew the Bf110...look at Schnaufer, for example. Yes, the Ju88 was a good NF, but the Bf110 certainly proved it's worth in that role, which wasn't part of it's original design.
They flew it because it was ,for much of the war, the best that was available. Still it had several weaknesses

The Fw187 was designed as a fighter, not a bomber and unlike the Bf110, would not have adapted as well due to it's dimensions. The Bf110's cockpit was far larger than the Fw187's, as the 187 had been originally designed as a single-seater.
For attack missions whats the importance of the cocpit size? Hs129 had an extremely cramped cocpit but still was succesful

Adding a second crewman aboard the 187 was almost a waste, as there was really nothing for him to do, but add weight, since the configuration of the cockpit-to-fuselage prevented the addition of defensive armament.
It could have a defentive Mg but of limited traverse. But how much the rear gunner helped the 110?Mosquito had rear gun? The best Protection was speed. A single Seat Fw 187, like the Fw190F-G would be very hard to intercept, and with better range and 2 engine safety

I could certainly see the 187 performing photo recon duties, as the camera systems used aboard the Bf109 would have fit in the 187's fuselage/cockpit well enough.

 

[stona]

Any conflict is a dynamic event. As was once famously said, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

The British envisioned their turret fighters raking formations of enemy bombers, they did not anticipate the presence of single engine escorts because they did not anticipate the fall of France.

The Germans anticipated their destroyers clearing the skies of bomber killers (and the Bf 110 would certainly do for a Defiant) and did not anticipate the performance or organisation of the RAF's defence. They had done just fine earlier.

During the first Gulf war the RAF implemented its low flying strike tactics, designed to defeat Eastern Block air defences and suffered initial casualties far higher than their US comrades. We were all treated to images of battered RAF air crew on the ten o'clock news.

Everyone on all sides has to adapt. Generally he who adapts best wins. The Germans adapted the versatile Bf 110 to a variety of different roles, most importantly was probably the night fighter, the majority of aircraft operated by the Nachtjagd from 1943-45 were Bf 110s. I suspect, but haven't checked, that the Bf 110 night fighters accounted for more allied bombers than any other type. This does not diminish its achievements in other roles.
In the Gulf those RAF air crew, trained at vast expense to master low level strikes flew higher.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

You are expecting the Fw 187 to not only achieve a level of superiority over the Spitfire but to sweep the entire RAF from the skies in any area within hundreds of miles of the British isles. A rather tall order.

This condition was rarely achieved by any air force in WW II or afterwards except for a few brief periods of time. Does this mean the Spitfire failed to do it's job? Or the P-51 over Germany in 1944, early 1945? The Americans could NOT send formations of even B-26s very far without escorts until the very closing days of the war. B-29s shifted to Night attacks over Japan for a number of reasons, the heavier bomb loads they wanted to use would have forced them into lower altitudes where the Japanese fighters would would have been more effective (so would the flak).
The F-86 Sabre failed to destroy the Chinese Migs to an extent that allowed for un-escorted bombing missions near the border. "More importantly, in 1950 numbers of Soviet MiG-15 "Fagot" jet fighters appeared over Korea, and after the loss of 28 aircraft, future B-29 raids were restricted to night-only missions, largely in a supply-interdiction role."
While the F-86 didn't come close to the propaganda 10:1 kill ratio it didn't allow for the resumption of daylight bombing missions either.

One reason the Bf 110 was kept in the line up during the BoB was that there were NOT enough 109s.

One source claims that on Aug 10th 1940 there were 289 Bf 110 fighters and fighter bombers available In Luftflotten 2, 3 and 5 of which 224 were serviceable, granted Norway and the Battle for France had cost over 80 aircraft but I doubt that even 300 Fw 187s would have destroyed the RAF to such an extent as to allow Ju 87s to roam over southern England unmolested.

 

[dedalos]

the propaganda 10:1 kill ratio it didn't allow for the resumption of daylight bombing missions either.

One reason the Bf 110 was kept in the line up during the BoB was that there were NOT enough 109s.

One source claims that on Aug 10th 1940 there were 289 Bf 110 fighters and fighter bombers available In Luftflotten 2, 3 and 5 of which 224 were serviceable, granted Norway and the Battle for France had cost over 80 aircraft but I doubt that even 300 Fw 187s would have destroyed the RAF to such an extent as to allow Ju 87s to roam over southern England unmolested.

No, 300 single Seat Fw 187 would not destroy RAF in the Air. But maybe , they could keep the losses of the bombers to acceptable levels, and bleed the raf somewhat more the 110 did. Perhaps even keeping the Ju87 in the battle.
But of course the final result would not change. LW would need at least 4 times its historical numerical strength to hope that could maintain Air superiority over the channel and the invation beeches

 

[dedalos]

Any conflict is a dynamic event. As was once famously said, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

The British envisioned their turret fighters raking formations of enemy bombers, they did not anticipate the presence of single engine escorts because they did not anticipate the fall of France.

The Germans anticipated their destroyers clearing the skies of bomber killers (and the Bf 110 would certainly do for a Defiant) and did not anticipate the performance or organisation of the RAF's defence. They had done just fine earlier.

During the first Gulf war the RAF implemented its low flying strike tactics, designed to defeat Eastern Block air defences and suffered initial casualties far higher than their US comrades. We were all treated to images of battered RAF air crew on the ten o'clock news.

Everyone on all sides has to adapt. Generally he who adapts best wins. The Germans adapted the versatile Bf 110 to a variety of different roles, most importantly was probably the night fighter, the majority of aircraft operated by the Nachtjagd from 1943-45 were Bf 110s. I suspect, but haven't checked, that the Bf 110 night fighters accounted for more allied bombers than any other type. This does not diminish its achievements in other roles.
In the Gulf those RAF air crew, trained at vast expense to master low level strikes flew higher.

Cheers

Steve

Generally i agree with your post. However the german knew the existence of spitfire from 1936. Perhaps it even influenced the choice of the BF 109.
We know that they flew test of 109 against 187. I imagine they did the same between 109 and 110. What was the result? What COULD be the result? Udet and Goering were former fighter pilots. Couldnt realise that power and wing loadings were of paramount importance? From the First flights at berlin test pilots noticed the poor manouverability of the 110
Anyway, okay, they made their choice in an era that Aviation was evolving very fast
THEY DID IT AGAIN IN 1942!!!! As i wrote earlier thats even more unbeleivable. With 3 years of war experience they asked their NEW heavy fighter to have an Internal bomb bay ant defentive turrets!!! Back to the initial zerstorcher concept of 1935 that created the FW57 and HS 124. Which the Bf 110 defeated because of its lighter weight! After 6 years instead of going forward they went back!!! Remember that in 1942 Germany did not have any reliable 1750 engine but they still went ahead with "fighters"of 11t-12t !!!!
What exactly did not anticipated??? They had 3 war years behind them!

 

[GrauGeist]

And these were the same guys (Udet, et al) that turned their noses down at a jet fighter in 1939...

Probably because it couldn't dive bomb

 

[GregP]

Maybe we are losing track of the original premise of what would have happened if the Fw 187 had been adpoted. If it had, I say it would have been equipped with DB 601 engines and that for every Fw 187, something else that used the DB 601 could not have been built.

Looking at political reality, had the Fw 187 been adopted, it seems likely that the people capable of adopting it would make the decision about whether or not to reduce production of the Bf 109 or the Bf 110.

These would certainly not be the same decisions that resulted in the Fw 187 being rejected in the first place, and may not have resulted in my earlier premise that the Bf 110 production would be uninterrupted. The thing is ... the HAD the Fw 187 been adpoted, SOMETHING would suffer, but tehy would gain the capabilities of the Fw 187.

Maybe we should look at what the Fw 187 could bring to the table that the planes produced in real life could not bring.

Just a suggestion, not a change in thread direction. If we were to embrace this "what-if," what would have been the results?

The first result I can think of the a British decision to counter the Fw 187, and that might mean Whirwinds with improved engines. Exactly WHAT engine, I donlt know, but the Peregrine's would have to be made good or scrapped. I do NOT believe the British would have let an Fw 187 force go unaddressed for a second. The only real quesiton would be how they would address it and what would be the likely result.

Again, not raining on anyone's parade, just suggesting we look at what could have happened had the Fw 187 been produced in numbers to be meaningful in the wartime scheme of things.

Surely it would have been a worthy addition to the twin engine class of fighters.

 

[GrauGeist]

I don't think anything would have changed in the historical timeline, Greg, in all honesty.

The Fw187 wouldn't have been a game-changer, it would have simply been another fighter the RAF (and later, the USAAF) would have had to deal with.

The RAF didn't buckle under when the Fw190 appeared over British skies and out-classed the Spits and Hurries, they simply continued to develop and improve the Spit, as history reflects.

For each upgrade, came the inevitable new-threat upgrade by the other side.

 

[GregP]

I tend to agree with you entirely, Graugeist, but was trying to stir the pot of discussion. From the German perspective (and I'm not German) I think the Fw 187 would have probably been head and houlders better than the Bf 110, of which they HAD some. What that might be used to accomplish is a question of interest.

Suppose, just suppose thaht this new Luftwaffe "decision maker group" that decides to produce the Fw 187 ALSO decides that the strange and spindly towers on the British coast were a danger and used the Fw 187 force to attack and try to destroy the British radar installations. Further, suppose they had an attack of common sense and decided to change the enigma codes when the enigma machine went missing.

On such small decisions are history made.

If the Germans had changed their codes and did so at regular intervals, as common sense suggests, and had they had the Fw 187's ... then how would the Battle for the Atlantic have gone with the Allies NOT in possession of German plans and with the Germans having the Fw 187 in some numbers?

Sounds like Science Fiction, but it might have happened.

Had the Germans been flying the Fw 187 instead of the Bf 110, I believe no real change would have happened, but small circumstance changes like the engima or breaking the Japanese code might make that belief a bit ... premature. It would not take too many "setbacks" to materially affect the war. One that sends chills down my spine is what might have happened if the Germans had NOT attacked the Soviet Union.

Considering the state of Soviet readiness, had they NOT been attacked, it is likely that the Soviets would NOT have made the sweeping changes that radically improved their Air Force, and they may well NOT have been much of a factor. Had that happened, then the Germans could hjave used most of the divisions tried up on the Russian Front in Eastern Europe, and the same cna be said for the Luftwaffe. If 90% of the Luftwaffe had been engaged in Eastern Europe instead of being spread about the steppes of Russia, things might be different.

Just saying we could be looking at a few changes in German policy that would erase big historical mistakes that resulted or HELPED result in Allied victory. It would probably take more than just the Fw 187, but changing THAT dicision might also lead to more decision changes since it would be a better decision than was historically made. One better decision might lead to more.

Not suggesting a long what-if, just wondering where the "better" decisions might stop ...

 

[GrauGeist]

Sure Greg and I'll stir the pot a little more, then...

If Wevell hadn't perished in the wreck and if Richthofen was able to promote the 187 better, then it would have most likely been accepted into the slot between the Bf109 and the Bf110...

Matter of fact, I imagine that the He280 (and the Luftwaffe overall) would have had a chance in Wevell's administration, because he was a visionary and not stuck in 1915.

 

[GregP]

Not bad at all, Graugeist, not bad at all.

That stirs the pot.

I'm with you, though, in that I'm not sure it would have made any difference since if Hitler were to have stayed in charge, then he probably would not have listened any better to Wevell than he did to anyone else. But he might have made a difference ... not sure how much.

On to better things I suppose ...

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

A fine pot and a fine stir, great reading again thank you all.

My alternative what-if (!!) :

- 1 : History strikes first. Wevel dies, the Udet-Goering crew takes over, no Fw-187 no He-100, and no Ural Bomber. "The Führer doesn't ask me how many engines my bombers haves, he asks me how many I can produce" : Hermann Goëring. Stuka comes in the fray, and so Bf-110. Both He-100 and Fw-187 are sent packing into a minor propaganda role, to contribute to impress Germany's weaker neighbours into submission and freeze the French and the British.
My comment : The fast powerfull and heavy twin-fighter monoplane was a novelty then, so we should 'allow' for this little mistake... One engine one man, two engines two men, with the best technology available, for both. That should give something !
As for Wevel's death and the demise of Richtoffen's line, if we need some good luck later on then let's have a little 'hard blow' to occur as it did, that's my choice.


- 2 : 1940 goes on as it went. The Bf(Me?)-210 goes on too. However people in charge to think DO think : lessons of the BofB are drawn.
That the Stuka needed air superiority or fighter cover to operate was no news, but that the Zestörer Bf-110 needed it too !!, that should have lead to a complete review of its role. The future employ of the Bf-110 (this was done), and of future Me-210 (this wasn't), and most importantly how to fullfill that primary mission of prowling free well behind ennemy lines... plus the ability to escort bombers when the Bf-109 is not there.
The Zestörer needed to achieve this on its own, without support of course, or else, no weapon at all. Clearly the BoB had shown the Bf-110 was not up to the task.
On top of all its behviour problems, the Me-210 was also showing a lack of performances, and there was no hope of improvement there. Of course there were those wunderbar remote controlled barbettes, but could the Lufwaffe's planners really believe it would be sufficient to restore the aircraft's survivability, well alone and deep into ennemy territory against modern single engined fighters ?
The alternative was high perfomances.
So, at this stage, the mendatory lessons drawn from one year of conlict, concerning this 'destroyer' concept, especially considering the Bob and even the end of BoF, should have been : Can a twin-engined fighter with range keep on prowling free behind ennemy lines, disrupting its (mid) rear ? Which more technically could be reduced as : can a twin engined fighter compete with a single engined fighter ?

My what-if is simply at that stage that the military seriously draw lessons of one year of Zestörer employ, and put the right questions.


- 3 : Second what-if, but linked to the first. Those happy crews in Norway loudly chanting the praises of their three Jumo-engines Fw-187 are NOT disciplined into silence, their unit disbanded ; instead they are given quiet but thourought interviews.
The possibility of a fully modern Fw-187 operational type is seriously enquired, betting on the perfomance card.
All this of course, still as an 'alternative' or 'theorical' move, just because lessons were drawn and questions asked and possible answers, at hand, considered.

Industrial commitments are heavy affairs that can not be overturned at this date. Bf-110 goes to Russia, factories are gearing for the forthcoming Me-210. Whether a blind odrer for 1000 Me-210 is given or 'not yet', is just an option.
Fw-190 remains untouched by it all.

A fine little push of good luck here, to have everything else unfolding nicely later, would be the popping-up of some 'pilot factory' of small size, in the 'new provinces' perhaps, like a (large) school from craftsmen, technicians, applied engineers and workers, engaged in learning 'how to' transform an existing and 'frozen' type - the Fw-187 A0 that was, yes, operational in Bremen and Norway - into an actual industrial production... Small scaled of course, and slow. But for real.
Airframes (Fw-187 A0, picking stock Jumos then later the newer 187 type), engines (Db-601 directly then later Db605), machine-tools... Nice isn't it ?
But no even necessary.

- 4 : Reallity strikes hard : What has collapsed is not Ussr... but indeed the Me-210 program. We are now into 1942. It will a long war, even if the Ussr is still believed to be beatable it will be long and painfull, there's a new guy entering the show called Usa, and Britain is clearly set on striking back .
[to be followed]

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

[point n°4 followed]

What German planners do in 1942 with the wrecks of the Me-210 / Me-110 program is not even that important, providing they do NOT obstinate in the very large scale early plans of production.
The Fw-187 is naturally given a go, even if just as naturally it is a modest introduction in numbers. At this stage a modest, progressive production cannot be a problem, not hampering the Fw-190 in any way, and Daimler-Benz engines have to be available in sufficient numbers (thanks to the Me-210 chaos eventually.)
My guess here would be a quickly engineered 'Fw-187 AO with late marks Db601s' (if that's historically compatible), then soon enough a more reworked version with Db-605, slightly stretched wings especially at wing root to allow for Mg151 installation, 20mil or 15mil pending on availability then.

I would have:
- A standard general purpose single seater with two early Db-605s, four 20mil guns - 2 in fuselage, 2 in wing roots, fair amount of fuel and ammunition, some modern protection. A fuselage (basically unchanged) that's still small, wing aera well harmonized with new weight and power, that should keep the compromise excellent as certainly Kurt Tank's people could. Provision for bomb racks and drop tanks under fuselage and wings. Some clever arrangment in fuselage to slip in a Bf-109 compatible camera in place of smthg else when needed.
This one should be winning a reputation in the fields.

- A long ranged "F for fern" version without the fuselage guns but petrol instead. Perhaps a program for building cheap drop tanks to go along, using non strategical materials.
Long range escorts to VLR possible, long range raids purely on Fw-187 too. New opportunities for the LF, even with little LR Bomber and little fuel for it all. Just a card on the sleeves (using Fw-200 why not.)
Good for reco as well.
Being light when not top-filled with fuel, this version would come in handy for long pursuits against those western reconnaissance intrusions, flying high and fast on changing courses deep into Germany. I'm certain just a few numbers of these, scatered accross north-western Europe and dedicated to long range pursuits with clean surface finish and well timmed engines, would have brought results that no 109 or 190 ever could, or did. A free gift that comes along.

- A variation of the former as a two-seater. Cockpit like the historical ones. Less fuel but perhaps some place found for an 'extra fuel-tank off-balance to be emptied first' somewhere back in the fuselage ?, or leading edge tanks ? to compensate. Anyway a small numbered version, to be flown by experienced 'squadron leaders' only (Staffel fürher?) The idea would have one of them leading three single-seaters along, with the man in the back-seat giving orders, checking navigation, checking the sky or the ground for boggeys, reading battle situations when it unfolded, homing, radioing fellow bombers or ground stations etc. We're talking of long ranged missions, yet of any kind. It could fit in company of standard A versions too, on normal range 'Zestörer' missions why not.
Of course with insight we know that such a two seater would be superfluous, as the 2nd part of WWII witnessed the rule of the single seaters for about everything but strategic bombing. But I think it fitted well the German doctrine of the time, still bent on the 'destroyer' independent concept, marauder of sorts. And not that silly either. One two-seater plus 3 single seaters, a dangerous package certainly... when flying Fw-187s.

- No night-fighter. Too small.
At least not until the much later 'little radar sets for single engined wild boars' (sorry I've swallowed the name) appeared, then yes, as a 1 or 2 seater, it could have given an interesting winter-time wild boar. But that's much later.

- Finally, at the wartime I am considering, there was a big fuss about testing different aircrafts to carry a heavy gun (plus armour?) for anti-tank duties. Mk-101 then Flak 37. We know both the Ju-88 and Me-110 where not dimmed satisfactory for that. Could it be that our 187... No record nor reason to claim that a Fw-187 could handle it well, such a big and heavy new task but sometimes good pupils are really astonishing.

So here we are step #4 the Fw-187 has to be put into some modest production and interesting operational introduction, just because lessons had been drawn, good questions asked and the available 'performance option' given a test run.
And by 1942 that could not be the A0 and its Jumo210 anymore, but some of the designs listed above, more or less. I maintain that Me109, Fw190 would not have suffered from its progressive introduction, while the 210/110 would have had to share something, engines at least.
We dont forget that, whatever, the Fw-187 could only remain secondary to the 109 and 190s even if top performing and proving its worth more and more in combat, because of its price.
Jumo 211 powered should be discarded as performance triggered the decision to give it a go. But for 1942 1st half, into operational squadrons, who knows.


- 5 : War drags on. The modest number of 187 have modest impact on events, but qualitatively it has to be good. Eastern front. Pilots are vocal about it, unanymous, and by the way, they survive... (and One Db-605 mechanical failure don't bring them down.) Other are getting jealous.
Local mission planners and leaders find them most handy, effective too, and after a month they're still there.
What decision to take ? The aircraft is disruptive in a logistical point of view, requires two engines to manufcture and maintain, pilots have to be schooled for multiple engines flight, probably advanced navigation and night flying too if one is to be coherent, just what was being given up at the time... (because of fuel restriction.) Oh yes it does consumme fuel too.
To some RLM wallies, it would have seemed that "there's nothing a Fw-187 does that a Fw-190 can't do", and 'let's forget about this over-engined sports-kite barely able to carry a handbag and concentrate on war-winning tools instead'.
It's just that it could chase Mosquitoes and PR Spitfires, and soon enough F-5s, could and would disrupt soviet supply lines at will with insolent survivability, assasinate Mediterrean Hurricanes and P-40s well into their home bases and treat the appearing American rookie Japanese style.
But appart that, it carried only 4 guns, the 190 had 2 extra mgs, with a load of bomb probably not'overstretched' yet. No way to put it into a night fighter either, the Me-110 is still needed (or eventually the Ju-88 alone, another debate.) Its industrial gearing, modest, would have been easely kileable still.

- 6 : Then comes the Mighty Eigth. And its fellow 9th too. We know that the Luftwaffe in 1942-3 already went into some wild considerations to deal with the thing. Air to air bombs, guns pods, field rockets, heavy guns, various missiles or why not armoured gliders towed into the place or even a rocket interceptor. Later on ther would be 'company front assault' in over-amoured Focke-Wulfs, exploding ill manufactured aircraft into the stream, or manned missiles, collision 'victories'...
There is no reason to think the The Fw-187, in production, would'nt have been given a glance to contribute.
The Mk-103 powerfull 30mil guns was appearing at that time too, at least in the planning stages.
Fighter escorts of the flying fortresses was still not expected above central germany, but everywhere alese it WAS already there. In Mediterreanea, and in shorter range bombing missions over occupied West Europe too.

The Fw-187 could have brought an airplane that, given the right compromise of weight, cleaneness, power and room for 'payload', could :
- meet fighter escort on an equal basis, when and where they couldn't avoid them
- survive the intense defensive fire from the American boxs at least to a decent range, a little time presence, not more
- hammer a viermot bomber fast with decisive results. Good punch, right weapons, good aiming.
- have the range to escape soon enough, manoeuvre the escort and if not too damaged come round again, with similar odds of survivability and efficiency or else go back home safely.

To achieve this :
- Get the latest Db-605s, 1943-brand for this one,
- increase just what it takes of wing aera for warfare at high altitude,
- do add armour for pilot (on sides too), and other carefully chosen parts (ammo). One cannot put too much yet just enough to deflect the first Browning bullets 'at mid range' (whatever that means?), letting the pilot concentrate on singling-out his target and tuning his aim, with little damage at this point to do it again. Then of course if he presses on his charge some damage cannot be avoided. Just the right amount of protection from all quarters.
- make room in the fuselage for one single Mk-103, protruding under belly, and retain wing root 20mils and given them all ample munitions.
- pressurizing the cockpit for comfort why not ? after all a new canopy had to be designed, and cockpit structure reviewed to allow for some integrated armour.

That's it. Then it's all a matter of finding the good compromise for these elements. But it could have been found.
American pressure sure would have helped.

A variation of the above for the night Wild Boar missions, especially at winter times (when single engined did suffer and in fact disappear), with that small radar set that got installed llater even on Fw-190s, and perhaps a second crew member depending on other factors. Not too good news for the Bomber Command either.

And then, here we have, a Fw-187 soldiering on until the very end.

Just another threat that the allies would have had to deal with, as well written in a previous post.
With the final result absolutely unchanged.

 

[stona]

No, 300 single Seat Fw 187 would not destroy RAF in the Air. But maybe , they could keep the losses of the bombers to acceptable levels, and bleed the raf somewhat more the 110 did. Perhaps even keeping the Ju87 in the battle.

No chance, and that is not because of the types of aircraft used but how they were used. The Luftwaffe's tactics, organisation, communications and intelligence were not up to the task, just to mention some of the problems.

Goering thought in 1945 that the Bob had been fought to a draw, as do many modern historians. That is not what the surviving Luftwaffe pilots thought at the time. They felt they had been beaten. Having a different aircraft (if DB powered this means fewer of the other two principal types) would not have altered that.

The Fw 187 would not have outclassed the British fighters. It might have drawn squadrons outside 11 Group into the battle by dint of its superior range. That would have made Leigh-Mallory, Bader and the rest of 12 Group happy men.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

However the german knew the existence of spitfire from 1936. Perhaps it even influenced the choice of the BF 109.

The development contract for the Bf 109 was issued to BFW in February 1934. The contract for the Supermarine Type 300 was issued almost a year later on 5th January 1935. This is also the time when the first Supermarine drawings which are recognisably Spitfire first appeared.

The Bf 109 development was underway before the Spitfire. The Bf 109 V1 FLEW only four months after the Spitfire (Type 300) first appeared on paper! The Germans would have been aware of the Spitfire after it first flew. K5054 famously took to the air on 5th March 1936, nearly a year after the Bf 109 V1.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

An early Fw 187 has several things going for it and few going against. The extra power over the Jumo 210 engines would certainly help level speed ( but not to the extent the DB powered prototype showed) and climb and the ability to sustain speed in a turn. Unfortunately the 600-800kg increase in empty and loaded weights are going to raise the wing loading to around 40lbs per square ft ( with full fuel) so some of the maneuverability the Jumo powered 187A-0s enjoyed is going to go away.
The 109 gained over 400kg empty going from the Jumo 210 engine to the DB 601 (E-1 with four 7.9mmg). Since the Fw 187 was pretty much designed for the DB engines and used Jumo 210s due to a lack of DB engines we can probably assume the structure supporting the engine mounts and landing gear and such were built heavy enough to take the bigger engines and the weight increase will be a bit less than double what the weight increase was for the 109.

If anybody had good figures for the weight increase for 110 when it shifted to the DB engines that would be good. But we need either both planes empty weight or both planes empty equipped.

It might be instructive to go back and look at the P-38 also. The P-38 was pretty fast with it's 1100-1150hp engines but it was fast high up (over 20,000ft) due to the turbos. At low level it was fast but not the to the extent that max speeds indicate. A P-38D was good for 322mph at 5,000ft. A MK II Spitfire was good for 306mph using 9lbs boost. at 20,000ft the difference is 25mph. But then the P-38 could make 1150hp per engine at over 20,000ft (intake temperature permitting).
BTW a Spitfire I using 12lbs boost can outrun an Early P-38 at low altitude.

Our DB 601A-1 powered FW 187 is making 1020PS (1005/6 hp)at 4500 meters ( 14850ft) without ram, at 6000 meters it is down to about 850PS per engine and at 8000 meters (26500ft) it is down to around 660-670PS. Early P-38 could pull 950hp per engine at 2600rpm at 26,000ft. It was limited by the inter-cooler so trying to use 3000 rpm wasn't going to gain much.

Peak speed for the FW 187 DB 601A-1 powered is going to be around 5,000meters, give or take a bit due to RAM. Spitfire II hit peak speed at 17750 ft (about 5380 meters).

The FW 187 is going to be a lot better with the DB engines than with the Jumos but it is expecting a LOT for it to sweep Spitfires from the skies in the numbers needed to really change anything.

Of course as the DB engines get better the Fw 187 would have gotten better but then it's opponents were getting better also.