Fw187 could have been German P-38?

[GregP]

Hi Graugeist,

I was talking about using the DB 60x engines and making the Fw 187 into a true heavy fighter, not the Jumo 210 equipped units. They actually DID make one of the beasts with them. It was the V7, converted from 210s to 601s. The projected "super Fw 187" was DB equipped, not Jumo equipped, and the DB engines were the desire of Fw from the outset, as well documented.

 

[fastmongrel]

If the LW gets the 187 then the RAF has to get a Whirlwind MkII.

Both are about as likely as the other unfortunately.

 

[tomo pauk]

The LW got the Fw 187 (albeit in token numbers).
Jokes aside, technically the Fw 187 was more apt to receive the DB 6 engine (it was done on experimental basis), than the Whirlwind to receive Merlins. The Whirly was just too small.

 

[wiking85]

If the LW gets the 187 then the RAF has to get a Whirlwind MkII.

Both are about as likely as the other unfortunately.

How does that follow?

 

[stona]

The early P-38s, the -D and -E, were credited to some 375 mph at 20000 ft.

They'd have to fight higher than that in the summer/autumn of 1940 and against a far more agile opponent. Anyway, it's not really the point of the thread

Cheers

Steve

 

[wuzak]

I follow Shortround's logic above. DB 6 engines were in short supply from when they were originally released until sometime well after mid war. If I am not mistaken, the DB engines set the pace of Bf 109 production to a large degree. If that was the case, then one Fw 187 removes two Bf 109s, even if the airframes are ready and waiting for an engine.

The Bf110 also used 2 x DB601s (at that point in time). So the production of each Fw187 would most likely cost one Bf110 rather than two Bf109s.

But if you can't get the DB601 or the Jumo 211 then really, what's the point?

 

[tomo pauk]

I'd say that it depends whether such a fighter is really wanted. If yes, then Bf-110 is not produced, the Daimlerized Fw 187 is instead.
Looking at historical Fw 187 being as fast as Hurricane I and Bf-110C, the Hispano engines can be installed, too. There was a production line in Czechoslovakia for the 12Ycrs, 860 HP at 4 km. some 150 HP less than DB 601, but also 200 HP more than Jumo 210. Once France is occupied, transfer more tooling in Bohemia, or re-tool what is needed for production of German engines there; historically the Jumo 211 was produced in Bohemia.
Another proposal is the Gnome Rhone 14N, radial twin row engine.

 

[GregP]

The only reason I was saying the Bf 110 was not going to be reduced is because the Battle Of Britian had yet to happen when the proposed Fw 187 acquisition would be taking place, and the Bf 110 was never proven to be a failure as a fighter until the BOB.

So it was in full acquisition mode during the proposed Fw 187 purchase timeline. I'd have preferred the Fw 187 to the Bf 110 myself, but I wasn't in the decision loop at the time.

So I'm thinking that the Bf 110 was still looked upon with considerable favor in the 1938 - 1939 timeframe.

 

[stona]

So I'm thinking that the Bf 110 was still looked upon with considerable favor in the 1938 - 1939 timeframe.

It certainly was. It was a very good aeroplane in that time frame. We shouldn't forget that it was still being produced, definitely, in December 1944 and almost certainly right until the end of the war. The idea that it was a 'bad' aeroplane is simply untenable. The only other two British or German fighters (heavy or otherwise) conceived in a similar period that you can say that about are the Spitfire and Bf 109, which is illustrious company indeed.

The Ta 154 failed to match the anticipated performance promised by Tank/Focke-Wulf. There may be a cautionary note there for those who extrapolate prototype or calculated data for the Fw 187 onto a theoretical service type. Both Galland and Streib, on flying the type, expressed their disappointment, not least because it could not match the British Mosquito.
As far as development problems, V4 lost an engine in flight and subsequently crashed. V5 leaked like a sieve, notably collecting water in the gun bay. V6 and V7 both suffered a long list of technical failures, one of which, rust, is surprising on a largely wooden aeroplane. V8 crashed, killing both pilots, following an engine fire. V9 crashed on landing due to hydraulic failure. Two A-1s were lost in June 1944, the second broke up in flight and this was attributed to problems with the glue by Focke-Wulf themselves who unilaterally stopped production.
After this the Ta 154 was on the verge of cancellation, not production. It is no coincidence that it is at this time (17th June) that a Herr Schopfel from the Focke-Wulf Entwurfsburo visited Junkers at Dessau to look at the possibility of its use in a Mistel.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Denniss]

Bf 110 production ended in 1/45. It was only kept in production for the NF units wanting them although it was deemed too slow by 1944.

 

[stona]

Yes, and fuselages and other components were found by the Allies at the end of the war. Whether they were ever to have been completed nobody knows. The Bf 110 was quite a Houdini, being axed several times, only to have production reinstated, continuing until the collapse of Nazi Germany.
It is an aeroplane which does not deserve the cursory dismissal it often receives. It was one of the most successful of all designs produced by Germany or any other nation in the 1930s/40s.

I don't find any mystery in the RLM's rejection of the Fw 187, given that they had the Bf 110.
As always hindsight is a wonderful thing, but not afforded to the decision makers in late 1937 when they decided that two engines was one many for a single seat fighter, the best configuration for the Fw 187. This more or less killed the type, and started the long and fruitless development of a two seat 'heavy fighter'. Subsequently Focke-Wulf grasped at a series of straws in an effort to get a decent contract for some, any, version of the type.
Nobody at the RLM or in the Luftwaffe in 1937/8 saw any need for the long range escort fighter that the Fw 187 might have been. All the planning was for scenarios for conflict with Germany's continental neighbours.
Rapidly deploying to, and operating from, forward airbases is something the Luftwaffe did exercise and train for.
Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

If the LW gets the 187 then the RAF has to get a Whirlwind MkII.

If by Merlin Mk II you mean a Merlin powered variant, it was never going to happen. The original Mk II proposal was for an upgraded Peregrine version. No Mk II ever existed, though some apply the designation quite wrongly to the 'Whirlibomber'.

A Merlin conversion would have been a very complicated a job and needed considerable redesign which was never seriously considered, let alone undertaken. The Air Ministry pulled the plug on it and Westland were told to get on with other things. Unfortunately the RLM across the North Sea didn't work in the same way as the Fw187 saga clearly demonstrates.

Eric Mensforth approached Fighter Command (not the Air Ministry) through what we would call 'back channels' in January 1941 with a proposal fro a Merlin XX powered Whirlwind. Teddy Petter proposed a smaller diameter four blade propeller to overcome the close proximity of the engine nacelles to the fuselage but nobody came up with even a theoretical solution for the principal problem. Though the Merlin wasn't much longer or heavier than the Peregrine it did use an up draught carburettor and this occupied space at the lower rear end of the engine required for the Whirlwind's main undercarriage mountings. Either Rolls Royce would have to completely redesign this aspect of the engine (never going to happen) or Westland would have to redesign the undercarriage system and nacelle of the Whirlwind, which they never even attempted to do.
From memory Westland's next paper project was a Hercules powered version.

Once again it is easy for us to write now, and Mensforth then, about such a seemingly straight forward thing as an engine swop, the reality is usually much more complicated and difficult.

Cheers

Steve

 

[fastmongrel]

The LW got the Fw 187 (albeit in token numbers).
Jokes aside, technically the Fw 187 was more apt to receive the DB 6 engine (it was done on experimental basis), than the Whirlwind to receive Merlins. The Whirly was just too small.

Whirlwind II would have had Peregrines but of a later more developed version maybe with a Merlin XX type blower and water/glycol cooling.

 

[dedalos]

Yes, and fuselages and other components were found by the Allies at the end of the war. Whether they were ever to have been completed nobody knows. The Bf 110 was quite a Houdini, being axed several times, only to have production reinstated, continuing until the collapse of Nazi Germany.
It is an aeroplane which does not deserve the cursory dismissal it often receives. It was one of the most successful of all designs produced by Germany or any other nation in the 1930s/40s.

I don't find any mystery in the RLM's rejection of the Fw 187, given that they had the Bf 110.
As always hindsight is a wonderful thing, but not afforded to the decision makers in late 1937 when they decided that two engines was one many for a single seat fighter, the best configuration for the Fw 187. This more or less killed the type, and started the long and fruitless development of a two seat 'heavy fighter'. Subsequently Focke-Wulf grasped at a series of straws in an effort to get a decent contract for some, any, version of the type.
Nobody at the RLM or in the Luftwaffe in 1937/8 saw any need for the long range escort fighter that the Fw 187 might have been. All the planning was for scenarios for conflict with Germany's continental neighbours.
Rapidly deploying to, and operating from, forward airbases is something the Luftwaffe did exercise and train for.
Cheers
Steve

I partially disagree. We all know today that Bf 110 was a very useful and capable Aircraft in a variety of roles.But we must note forget that the reason of its creation was neither the night fighting nor the ground attacls. It was designed and ordered as long range fightter to clear the road ahead of the bombers. And it was in this role that was almost exlusively used until BoB. Only after its failure did the germans seek oher roles for the Bf110. Only when it was proven in practice its incapability as Air superiority fighter was used for other things and the role of long range fighter remained empty in LW s roster. So, since it failed in the role that it was designed for, it was a massive failure. ( To be fair , bad tactics by LW also doomed the 110 in BoB)
Also it was no surprise that it could not out fight the spitfire. It was no surprise in 1938, it was no surprise in 1940 before the BoB. Many questioned ,in 1937, its ability to deliver what it promised. In 1940 most Technical officer of the Bf 110 gruppen, and many pilots, were certain that they would fail in BoB. It was pure mathematics. The power and wing loading of the 110 were simply inferior to the single engine fighters. Furthermore , in mock dogfights, the 110 was very easily defeated by 109s. Why would be any different against spitfires? And it was already proven in BoF.
On the other hand The Fw 187 had proved in direct comparison tests that when using same engines,was outperforming the 109 and could manouver with it in equal terms . Even the Jumo 210 Fw 187 was judged as better handling and agility than the Bf110 C (DB601s)!
So, there s mystery with the rejection of Fw 187 by the RLM. They had the 110 but it could not make their job. The 187 could. It was clearly a politicaln decision of the mid war nazi germany. Germany could not have both the 187 and 110. Should cancel the 110 and push the 187 (and in my opinion in its original single Seat version) simply because was massively superior
The 187 had another chance in 1942. In summer RLM, with the fiasco of the Me 210, asked Fw to prepare modern FW187s prototypes and prepare for serial production.Then in autumn cancelled the entire Programme. They went ahead with Me 210 , Me 410 s, Bf110G. Aircraft with massively inferior performance for the heavy,day fighter role and more expensive than the Fw187. The 410 using DB603 was 60KM/H slower than the twin Seat 187 using Db 605 s !! For me this is an even more mysterious decision than the 1937/38. After 3 years of war ,they had experience, it had been proved that performance was everything for a fighter. And again chose aircraft that had not a chance against the Bf 109. How rlm expected the 210/410 to survive alleid fighters since could not face the 109? How expected a light/attack bomber, to survive the thousands American escort fighters? Let s accept that in 1937 did not see the future correct. Then they htsad the disastrous BoB experience. And then choose as their next Zerstorcher
an aircraft that it was even less a fighter than 110 was!!! They demanded an Internal bomb bay in a fighter!!
I often wonder, did RLM had any feedback by operational units? If they had, did they pay any attention to the operational units needs?
The glamorous General der Jagdflieger, what was doing? How allowed his men flying bombers that were baptised fighters against the thousands P51s,p47s,?

 

[fastmongrel]

How does that follow?

Because both aircraft were not wanted, production of them would have taken resources from other aircraft, and they were both built in small factories that basically werent up to the job of turning them out like hot rolls. All these problems could be and were overcome but what do you lose if they are built. Maybe no Fw190 in 1941.

 

[stona]

On the other hand The Fw 187 had proved in direct comparison tests that when using same engines,was outperforming the 109 and could manouver with it in equal terms . Even the Jumo 210 Fw 187 was judged as better handling and agility than the Bf110 C (DB601s)!

Before Paul Bauer destroyed it the Fw 187 V1 was shown to be about 35 kph faster than a Jumo 210 D powered Bf 109. This was the lightest, unarmed, single seat prototype of the Fw 187. What the performance of a fully armed, armoured and service equipped Fw 187 might have been is open to conjecture.

There never really was a service version of the Fw 187. The nearest we have would be the zero series (S) aircraft assigned to the Focke-Wulf Werksschutzstaffel and none of these were flown against a comparable Bf 109.
By the time the Staffel was established in early 1940 the comparison would have to be with a Daimler Benz powered 'Emil'. The one DB powered Fw 187 prototype was not exactly a practical service aircraft, the DB 601 installation wasn't even ground tested in V5 until 15th September 1939 and the problems, particularly with cooling, are well documented.

There's not much point making the Fw 187/Bf 110 comparison as the Fw 187 was incapable of performing many of the roles which the Bf 110 did. As a fighter the Fw 187 was superior, all the rest is guess work as there is no Fw 187 sub-type to compare. I'd bet the Bf 110 made a better glider tug

Cheers

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

The 110 did what it was supposed to do fairly well.

I partially disagree. We all know today that Bf 110 was a very useful and capable Aircraft in a variety of roles.But we must note forget that the reason of its creation was neither the night fighting nor the ground attacls. It was designed and ordered as long range fightter to clear the road ahead of the bombers. And it was in this role that was almost exlusively used until BoB. Only after its failure did the germans seek oher roles for the Bf110. Only when it was proven in practice its incapability as Air superiority fighter was used for other things and the role of long range fighter remained empty in LW s roster. So, since it failed in the role that it was designed for, it was a massive failure. ( To be fair , bad tactics by LW also doomed the 110 in BoB)

For all of it's early flying with Jumo engines and a few DB powered prototypes the 110 was actually a bit of a late comer to service. As of Aug 31 1939 only `159 110C fighters had been built and only about 1/2 had been issued to the combat units, production was at about 30 per month (BTW FW was one of 3 factories building 110s in the spring/summer of 1939) and increase with 156 being built in the last 4 months of 1939. That is not a whole lot to divide up into other roles, especially considering that in Poland Jumo powered versions made up about 25% of the 110 force.
As for NOT being used for other roles until after the BoB, I am afraid that is not true. There were two Staffeln of 110C4/B fighter bombers being employed against channel shipping in July of 1940 and small numbers of 110C-5 Recon planes being used in early summer of 1940. British shot/forced down one of them on July 21st 1940 at Goodwood giving them their first good look at the 110. Lack of range (and the C-1 had nominal range of 876 miles with extra tanks fitted in the wings
during the Norway campaign led to the 110D with the huge plywood belly tank to give air cover to the coastal convoys along the Norwegian coast. A small number of these planes were used on Aug 15th as escorts for a flank attack on RAF airfields in Northern England. These early versions/variants continued to be developed during the BoB.

Development of variants often took a number of months and overlapped operations.

 

[stona]

It is not really correct that the reason the Bf 110 was created purely as a long range fighter to clear a path for the bombers. It is true that the design emerged from the Luftwaffe's guidelines as published in the 'Rustungflugzeug II' of 1932 and its successor of 1934. However, in early 1934 Prof. Messerschmitt submitted a memorandum to the RLM regarding Messerschmitt project 1035 (which would become the Bf 110) which offered not only a 'zerstorer' but also a high altitude reconnaissance aircraft and a bomber, all based on the same platform. It was normal practice for all German manufacturers to offer different versions based on the same platform in the 1930s, it was not a Messerschmitt speciality and the idea probably came from the RLM itself.
The bomber requirement was lost from the Bf 110 later in 1935 and it did become more of a zerstorer. The Bf 161/162 were to have been the reconnaissance/high speed bomber versions. This only happened after the Germans discovered what others (particularly the Americans) were up to and developed the high speed bomber concept.

The argument that the Bf 110 failed as a bomber escort and therefore failed as an aircraft is spurious. The Nachtjagd would have been at a serious loss for the first several years of the war without it and that's just one role it fulfilled.
The Hawker Typhoon 'failed' as an air supremacy fighter but became one of the best three fighter bombers of the war in the ETO. Just because neither excelled in its originally intended role does not make either a failed aircraft.

On 12th May 1936 the first Bf 110 took to the air. The last 17 Bf 110 G-4s rolled of the production line in February 1945. Brand new Bf 110s were discovered by British troops, blown up by the Germans, at the Luther Works, Braunschweig, at the end of the war. That's not bad for any WW2 aircraft.

Cheers

Steve

 

[dedalos]

Stona
i dont accept your claim that the Fw 187 could not perform many of the roles that the 110 did. Recce? Would be better because was faster and cleaner airframe and higher service ceiling Jabo missions? The 110 had to be modifeid to perform such missions.With similar modifications ,better power reserves, the 187 would be superior
Night fighting ? As long as there was no airborne radar both were of similar capability with the 187 again have the edge in handling and performance. Protect the u boats in biscay bay? the 187 far superior thatn both Ju88c and Bf 110 C. The german would have an answer for the mosquito

But all the above are of secondary importance. The Raison d'etre of the 110 was to protect the bombers. Thats why was created. When Goering was boasting prewar about his Zerstorcher Force he was not saying that it was good at ground attack, or recce, or Maritime patrol, or night fighting. He was claiming and expected that they would dominate the sky. And if the 110 had perform even with moderate succes the role for which was born there would not be the need to be modifeid for other roles
Stukas would made all the ground attack, Do17s would make the recce and night fighting,Ju 88 the Maritime patrols. It failed in its inteded role,with disastrous consequences. So in order to take something out of the aircraft they used it in other roles whre it performed decently. But it FAILED its primary and historical role and germany lost any chance to get out of the war in one piece

I would like to say something about the night fighting capabilities of the 110. It s a myth that it was very good night fighter. It was better than most of the other available aircraft the germans had but still was mediocre. Clearly inferior to Ju 88R&G. It s performance was barely adequate when fully equiped, its single engine behavior poor,its range short, the cocpit cramped for 3 man crew, its armor rather light. Too slow to catch the mosquito, far inferior than Ju 88 against bombers.
A combination of two Seat Fw187/Ju88 would be far superior.

 

[Shortround6]

I posted a picture of a camera being carried to a 110. It was decided back in 1938 that the Bf 161 recon plane would not be needed because the Bf 110 could do the job. The camera in the Bf 161 went where the bomb bay for ten 50 kg bombs went on the Bf 162. Alternative roles for the 110 were being thought of well before the BoB.
The 110 was initially designed and built with space for a 3 seat cockpit should 3 seats be needed for a particular role. This did hurt performance but it also means it is going to be that much harder to modify a single seat aircraft to perform those roles. As a fighter it was often flown with only two crew but the space was already there. No fuselage extensions or bulges needed.

Stuka's could NOT do all ground/shipping attack. Do 17Zs with a max speed of 255mph are not going to be able to perform recon missions with the number of losses the 326mph (at same altitude) Bf 110 could (Do 215 could make 289mph at same height but needs the same DB engines). In 1940/early 41 JU-88Cs were based off the Ju 88A-1 bomber with Jumo 211B engines and had rather different performance than the Ju 88C-6 with Jumo 211Js. Part of the difference was made up (if you can call it that) by the C-2 operating at thousands of pounds less weight than the later Ju 88 fighters. This included an armament of ONE 20mmm cannon and 3 mgs firing forward.

I have given 3 examples of the 110 being modified for other roles before it's "failure". Can you give sources that contradict these examples?
NO use of the 110 as a Jabo before the BoB?
The 110 forced down at Goodwin had no camera or the date is wrong?
110Ds with the belly plywood tank were NOT in use in June/July of 1940?