Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
First post.
FW190D-9 vs Allied fighters
- Thread starter Demopan78
- Start date
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I know what the first post says but the title doesnt. In any case the poster may be interested in just one score, to me, the scores by both types against each other give context, it is a discussion forum after all. An Avro Anson claimed a Bf 109 in the Battle of France, which looks great if you can discount all Bf 109 claims for all types at the time.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,555
- May 13, 2018
Like, how many Ansons were downed by Bf 109s? 109 Es, Fs etc. Just steppin in for the Admiral.
That doesnt matter, the skids were put under the LW when that Anson downed an experienced Bf109 pilot. That made things easier for the Hurricane pilots in the BoB, which made things easier for Spitfire pilots in France and North Africa. By the time the P-47 and P-51 showed up the LW were pushing pilots to their aircraft in prams. It was the Anson wot wun it.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
And the information is useful in that context.
It provides us with a (non-exhaustive) list of Spitfire XIV vs 190D-9 combats, and so gives us a place to start to find German claims and/or RAF losses of Mk XIVs on those dates.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Potential Mk XIV losses to 109D-9s, listed by serial number from Caygill. I've excluded everything listed as accident, flak or other circumstances. Total is 19 aircraft. I don't have the spare time at the moment to look up all of the losses, but there are plenty of databases online:
RB187
RB141
MB842
RM695
RM671
RM749
RM746
RM765 - Confirmed by Caygill as 'Shot down by FW 190D of JG 26 near Munster'
Unidentified 610 Squadron aircraft shot down during armed recce on 09 Feb 1945
RN120
RN123
RM750 - Likely 190D loss, reported by Claygill as 'Shot down by JG 26'
RM871
RB 185 - Confirmed by Foreman as a loss to FW 190D-9
MR843
RN203
MT766
NH686
RM618
RB187
RB141
MB842
RM695
RM671
RM749
RM746
RM765 - Confirmed by Caygill as 'Shot down by FW 190D of JG 26 near Munster'
Unidentified 610 Squadron aircraft shot down during armed recce on 09 Feb 1945
RN120
RN123
RM750 - Likely 190D loss, reported by Claygill as 'Shot down by JG 26'
RM871
RB 185 - Confirmed by Foreman as a loss to FW 190D-9
MR843
RN203
MT766
NH686
RM618
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The worst part is you could put that on social media and people would be spouting it as true within an hour.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Spare 30 minutes, so lets see if we can track down any more D-9 kills of Mk XIVs
RB187: No. Patrol over Thames estuary evening thought crashed into sea.
RB141: No. Missing from patrol off Isle of Wight 03-Apr-1944
MB842: No. Ran out of fuel abandoned off Bolt Head 12-Jun-1944
RM695: No. Damaged by explosion of V-1 Hawkinge CB 01-Sep-1944, reclassified as category E 09-Sep-1944
RM671: No. Damaged by flak force landed in Belgium 06-Nov-1944, Hit truck on landing Amiens/Glisy Category E 14-Nov-1944
RM749: Possible but unlikely. Attacking MT [motor transport] attacked by fighters and force landed near Burgsteinfurt 08-Dec-44 F/Lt D J Wilson killed.
More information from here (08.12.1944 130 Squadron Spitfire XIV RM749 Flt Lt. Wilson, B.64 Diest, Burgsteinfurt, Germany, War Crime)
RM746: Possible. Armed recce northern Germany in combat with Fw190s 18-12-44 F/Lt B M Madden RNZAF killed. Conflicting reports - some online sources give lost to flak, others give loss to FW190s.
Unidentified 610 Squadron aircraft shot down during armed recce on 09 Feb 1945
RN120: Possible. Missing from sweep to Paderborn 11-Feb-1945 W/O M F Harding killed.
RN123: Possible. Missing from patrol nearr Nijmegen 2-3-45 F/O C H Mottershead killed
RM750: Possible. Potential 190D-9 victory, reported by Caygill as 'Shot down by JG 26'.
More information: Missing presumed shot down by fighters near Rheine 02-Mar-1945. F/Lt George G. Earp 130 Squadron. Landed his Spitfire close to a barn at Umberg and captured by a Flak unit.
RM871: Possible. Missing on tactical recce to Zwolle 1-Apr-1945 F/Lt C J Blundell-Hill killed
RM843: Possible. Missing from sweep to Salzwedel 16-Apr-1945.
RN203: Possible. Combat with Fw190s on armed recce 19-Apr-1945
RM766: Possible. Combat with Fw190s 19-4-45 W/O P H J Clay BEM PoW - later released by US troops awarded DFC
NH686: Possible. Shot down by Fw190s near Berlin 20-April-45 W/O J Groensteen killed
More information from here (Diary - 350 (BELGIAN) Squadron - Royal Air Force):
RM765 - Confirmed by Caygill as 'Shot down by FW 190D of JG 26 near Munster'
RB 185 - Confirmed by Foreman as a loss to FW 190D-9
So, for the moment I have 2 confirmed and 11 possibles, with one extra possible. Five are definitely not 109D-9 kills.
RB187: No. Patrol over Thames estuary evening thought crashed into sea.
RB141: No. Missing from patrol off Isle of Wight 03-Apr-1944
MB842: No. Ran out of fuel abandoned off Bolt Head 12-Jun-1944
RM695: No. Damaged by explosion of V-1 Hawkinge CB 01-Sep-1944, reclassified as category E 09-Sep-1944
RM671: No. Damaged by flak force landed in Belgium 06-Nov-1944, Hit truck on landing Amiens/Glisy Category E 14-Nov-1944
RM749: Possible but unlikely. Attacking MT [motor transport] attacked by fighters and force landed near Burgsteinfurt 08-Dec-44 F/Lt D J Wilson killed.
More information from here (08.12.1944 130 Squadron Spitfire XIV RM749 Flt Lt. Wilson, B.64 Diest, Burgsteinfurt, Germany, War Crime)
...armed reconnaissance and fighter sweep in the Münster area. Whilst attacking a train approximately 20 enemy Bf109 and Fw190 aircraft were sighted. During the ensuing engagement Flt Lt. Wilson was heard to call over the radio that his aircraft had been hit. He asked for a course back to base, which was provided, but a few minutes later at 15:30 hrs he was again heard on the radio that he was badly hit and was going down. His position at the time was NW of Burgsteinfurt. Nothing more was heard or seen of Flt Lt. Wilson or his aircraft by other members of the flight.
Hptm. Herbert Rehfeld (Bf109G) and Gefr. Breiter (Bf109G) of 8./JG 27 each claimed a Spitfire in the region of south Rheine on this day at 15:00 hrs & 14:57 hrs respectively. (OKL Reich, West & Südfront Aug-Dec 1944)...
So, unlikely it was a 190D-9 killRM746: Possible. Armed recce northern Germany in combat with Fw190s 18-12-44 F/Lt B M Madden RNZAF killed. Conflicting reports - some online sources give lost to flak, others give loss to FW190s.
Unidentified 610 Squadron aircraft shot down during armed recce on 09 Feb 1945
RN120: Possible. Missing from sweep to Paderborn 11-Feb-1945 W/O M F Harding killed.
RN123: Possible. Missing from patrol nearr Nijmegen 2-3-45 F/O C H Mottershead killed
RM750: Possible. Potential 190D-9 victory, reported by Caygill as 'Shot down by JG 26'.
More information: Missing presumed shot down by fighters near Rheine 02-Mar-1945. F/Lt George G. Earp 130 Squadron. Landed his Spitfire close to a barn at Umberg and captured by a Flak unit.
RM871: Possible. Missing on tactical recce to Zwolle 1-Apr-1945 F/Lt C J Blundell-Hill killed
RM843: Possible. Missing from sweep to Salzwedel 16-Apr-1945.
RN203: Possible. Combat with Fw190s on armed recce 19-Apr-1945
RM766: Possible. Combat with Fw190s 19-4-45 W/O P H J Clay BEM PoW - later released by US troops awarded DFC
NH686: Possible. Shot down by Fw190s near Berlin 20-April-45 W/O J Groensteen killed
More information from here (Diary - 350 (BELGIAN) Squadron - Royal Air Force):
A Sweep to Berlin sees the formation of 11 Spitfire's clash with 12 Fw-190. F/Lt D. Haworth, P/O D. Watkins, M. Doncq, and A. Kicq destroyed each one, with Kicq damaging another. R. Muls also damaged a Fw-190. W/O Jacques Groensteen was shot down and MIA. The same day, F/Lt K. Smith is shot down by flak and made POW after crash landing his Spitfire.
RM618: Possible. Combat with Fw190s nr Wismar 24-Apr-45RM765 - Confirmed by Caygill as 'Shot down by FW 190D of JG 26 near Munster'
RB 185 - Confirmed by Foreman as a loss to FW 190D-9
So, for the moment I have 2 confirmed and 11 possibles, with one extra possible. Five are definitely not 109D-9 kills.
- Thread starter
- #29
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Got a copy of the account?
Len Bachelor has F/L M. Balasse FTR after an encounter with long nose FW190s around 09:00 in the Munster area. John Foreman has 41 Squadron in action against 1/JG 26, with M.A.L Basse FTR and "certainly shot down by either [Unteroffizier Walter] Planz or [Leutnant Hans-Helmuth] Cordt, since no combat claim was submitted".
RAF records are less conclusive. 41 Squadron records state there was combat with a "Squadron of long nosed 190's on the deck", later giving the count as 30 aircraft, conducted in the Munster area. According to 41 Squadron records, "F/Lt M.A.L. Balass (Belgian) was heard calling for a homing, but he did not return and was posted missing".
- Thread starter
- #31
Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
Caygill and 41 Squadron ORB noted that Balasse's loss occurred on 23 Jan 45. Caygill's and Foreman's accounts are not in agreement with Caldwell's The JG 26 War Diary.
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Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
More research:
RM746 - 610 Squadron records report B.M. Madden failed to return on 18 December 1944 after combat with 16 FW190s - includng four bomb carrying - encountered at 17,000 ft.
Tony Wood's Luftwaffe claims list has two Spitfire claims for the 18th, both from Unteroffizier Schmidt (no first name given) from 7 Staffel of JG 77. According to Foreman, this combat involved 66 Squadron and F/O W. Warhurst was lost. RAF records give the loss in that combat as a LF Mk IX. I can't find anything other than 109s operated by JG 77, so I consider this unlikely to be a 190D-9 kill of a Mk XIV.
RN120 - 610 Squadron records show aircraft piloted by W/O M. Harding failed to return from an armed recce of the Munster/Scoo(?)t, Paderborn/Munster area. Only opposition reported was light flak, so unlikely it was a 190D-9 kill of a Mk XIV.
RN123 and RN750 - Both lost on 02 March 1945 in a combat involving Mk XIVs from 130 and 350 squadrons and 109D-9s, 109Gs and 109K-4s from JG 26.
Tony Wood's claims list has the following Luftwaffe Spitfire claims for that date:
Uffz. Heinz Durchdewald, 12. JG 27, Spitfire at Ibbenbüren. Luftwaffe records show he we piloting a 109K-4 at the time
Fw. Werner Schreck, 10. JG 27, Spitfire 20km SE of Rheine. Luftwaffe records show he we piloting a 109G at the time
Oblt. Heinz-Günther Hennig 10. JG 27 Spitfire 10km SE Rheine. Luftwaffe records also show he was piloting a 109G
Hard to say, but it doesn't appear that any 109 D-9 pilots made Spitfire claims this day.
RM871 - RAF records has the aircraft crashed at Apeldoorn on tactical recce to Zwolle. Tony Wood's claims list has a Spitfire claimed by Uffz. Peter Köster of III. JG 7 for 01 April 1945. Luftwaffe records have JG7 operating a mix of 109Gs and Me 262s. Franz Peter Koster is listed as flying with 11/JG-7 from March, and being one of the top jet aces of WW2. So, maybe a Me 262 kill of a Mk XIV??
RM843: Reported missing from sweep to Salzwedel 16-Apr-1945. No Luftwaffe Spitfire claims on this day. RCAF records state: "F/L J. E. Maurice of the Winnipeg Bears failed to
return from an operation this day but got back to his squadron on May 5th." Similar story from 402 Squadron records. Given there were no claims made, unlikely this is a 190 D-9 caused loss.
RM746 - 610 Squadron records report B.M. Madden failed to return on 18 December 1944 after combat with 16 FW190s - includng four bomb carrying - encountered at 17,000 ft.
Tony Wood's Luftwaffe claims list has two Spitfire claims for the 18th, both from Unteroffizier Schmidt (no first name given) from 7 Staffel of JG 77. According to Foreman, this combat involved 66 Squadron and F/O W. Warhurst was lost. RAF records give the loss in that combat as a LF Mk IX. I can't find anything other than 109s operated by JG 77, so I consider this unlikely to be a 190D-9 kill of a Mk XIV.
RN120 - 610 Squadron records show aircraft piloted by W/O M. Harding failed to return from an armed recce of the Munster/Scoo(?)t, Paderborn/Munster area. Only opposition reported was light flak, so unlikely it was a 190D-9 kill of a Mk XIV.
RN123 and RN750 - Both lost on 02 March 1945 in a combat involving Mk XIVs from 130 and 350 squadrons and 109D-9s, 109Gs and 109K-4s from JG 26.
Tony Wood's claims list has the following Luftwaffe Spitfire claims for that date:
Uffz. Heinz Durchdewald, 12. JG 27, Spitfire at Ibbenbüren. Luftwaffe records show he we piloting a 109K-4 at the time
Fw. Werner Schreck, 10. JG 27, Spitfire 20km SE of Rheine. Luftwaffe records show he we piloting a 109G at the time
Oblt. Heinz-Günther Hennig 10. JG 27 Spitfire 10km SE Rheine. Luftwaffe records also show he was piloting a 109G
Hard to say, but it doesn't appear that any 109 D-9 pilots made Spitfire claims this day.
RM871 - RAF records has the aircraft crashed at Apeldoorn on tactical recce to Zwolle. Tony Wood's claims list has a Spitfire claimed by Uffz. Peter Köster of III. JG 7 for 01 April 1945. Luftwaffe records have JG7 operating a mix of 109Gs and Me 262s. Franz Peter Koster is listed as flying with 11/JG-7 from March, and being one of the top jet aces of WW2. So, maybe a Me 262 kill of a Mk XIV??
RM843: Reported missing from sweep to Salzwedel 16-Apr-1945. No Luftwaffe Spitfire claims on this day. RCAF records state: "F/L J. E. Maurice of the Winnipeg Bears failed to
return from an operation this day but got back to his squadron on May 5th." Similar story from 402 Squadron records. Given there were no claims made, unlikely this is a 190 D-9 caused loss.
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Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
From Caldwell's JG 26 for 2 March 45: Twenty-one Third Gruppe Focke-Wulfs took off from Plantunne at 0822 on a training mission. North of Rheine, the seventeen aircraft still with the formation took on a number of "P-47s, Tempests, and Spitfires" at 3-7000 meters (10-23,000 feet). The Allied fighters might have been all Spitfire XIVs of No. 125 Wings's two squadrons, which were on a patrol of Rheine and had already engaged JG 27 BF 109s that were in the area to screen Me 262 takeoffs. Uffz. Walter Hahnel of the 10th Staffel was shot down and killed; Third Gruppe pilots as yet unidentified claimed 2-1 Thunderbolts. The losses were possibly Spitfire XIVs of No 130 Squadron, two of which were downed either by this unit of by JG 27.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Ref the part in bold.
Foreman and Caldwell both have three 190D-9s lost and two damaged. Foreman has two shot down and one maneouver kill, Caldwell has three shot down.
They both have Planz and Cordt KIA and Ellenrieder wounded.
They both have one 41 Squadron Mk XIV lost. Although, somewhat contradictory and confusingly , Foreman states earlier that the combat occurred "without loss" for 41 Squadron. (It's been said before, but Foreman could do with a second edition with a better editor).
The main difference seems to be in describing the sequence of the attack.
Foreman says 41 Squadron was "jumped" by 30 plus 190 D-9s and turned into them, while Caldwell says there were 20 190 D-9s which were bounced by the Mk XIVs.
Based on the 41 Squadron account - which states that "Then, continuing round east of Hamm, F/O F.M. Hale saw a Squadron of long-nosed 190's on the deck, and the chase started. F/Lt D.J.V. Henry D.F.C. engaged two of the thirty plus acting as top cover to the Fighter Bombers on the deck" - Caldwell's description seems more accurate. However, Foreman and the 41 Squadron log both claim that one of the JG 26 losses was a manoeuver kill (credited to Squadron Leader Benham), while Caldwell has three shot down.
I'd suggest that its likely a difference in the sourcing produced the differing accounts - Foreman seems to many combat descriptions on accounts of individual pilots. Maybe that coloured his description in this case?
I also take issue with Foreman's conclusion that Balasse was "certainly shot down by either [Planz or Cordt] since no combat claim was submitted". It might be likely this is the case, but there are any number of reasonable alternative conclusions that mean its not a certainty.
- Thread starter
- #37
GregP
Major
Kurfurst was member who was banned. Can't recall why because I wasn't following at the time. Perhaps it is best to just let that one go. He does have a website about the Bf 109: Kurfurst - Your resource on Messerschmitt Bf 109 performance .
All I'll say is verify any data you use or take it from actual flight test data. That holds true for ANY website, not just his.
All I'll say is verify any data you use or take it from actual flight test data. That holds true for ANY website, not just his.
- Thread starter
- #39
ok?
- Thread starter
- #40
I now identified the german pilot who shot down the 2nd spitfire XIV
Hans hegener III/JG54
hIs aerial victory was a spitfire on 23rd january
(The same date balasse's RM765 was shot down)
And the other one RM766 piloted by clay phil
(XIVe) was said to be shot down by german fighters
(Said in griffon engine aces book)
