G3M "Nell" vs the world: 1937

[Conslaw]

The Chinese movie "Air Strike" is now streaming free to subscribers via Hulu, at least in the US. The movie takes place in the second Sino-Japanese war, beginning in 1937. There are lots of things to take issue with in the movie, but that is not the intent of this thread. What I want to raise in this thread is comparisons between the Japanese Navy's G3M "Nell" bomber and the other bombers that were actually in service in 1937. It seems to me that the Nell handily beats the United States' top bomber, the B-18. I'm opening this thread to conversations regarding the capability of multi-engined bombers across the world in 1937. Who's on top, and who's a flop?

 

[tomo pauk]

In late 1937, the G3M was probably within the top 4, together with Tupolev SB, He 111 and SM.79.

 

[Shortround6]

Just make sure you are comparing the correct G3M

 

[KiwiBiggles]

I think the Blenheim is pretty comparable, apart from range. It's a bit smaller, but its bombload is much the same and it's quite a bit faster.

 

[Kevin J]

Considering that they only built 1048, then clearly our Armstrong Whitworth Whitley introduced in 1937, 1814 built, must clearly be the superior machine. Not only can it carry 7000 lbs of bombs, it can be used for leaflet & paratroop dropping, and maritime patrol. Even the 1937 Handley Page Harrow bomber is a classic as a troop transport and medevac.

 

[The Basket]

1937 is a good year for bombers as they still had an advantage over fighters.
So Nell against a Gauntlet is quite the target. To be a good bomber in 1937 is not a hard thing.

The G3M was IJN so had to carry a torpedo. So it was not a like for like Comparison

 

[Shortround6]

Considering that they only built 1048, then clearly our Armstrong Whitworth Whitley introduced in 1937, 1814 built, must clearly be the superior machine. Not only can it carry 7000 lbs of bombs, it can be used for leaflet & paratroop dropping, and maritime patrol. Even the 1937 Handley Page Harrow bomber is a classic as a troop transport and medevac.

Lets remember that we are comparing the 1937 (or at best 1938) versions of these aircraft. I kind of like the Whitley, but the early versions were complete and utter crud due to the abysmal AS Tiger engines they were powered by.
Hard to be an effective bomber from British soil if the plane is banned from over water flights due to the unreliability of the engines and the flight characteristics with an engine out.
I would also note that the early aircraft had a single Vickers K gun (if you were lucky) in the tail "turret" and not the 4 Brownings of the later aircraft.

To be fair the Nell in picture posted earlier is using 3 copies of the Lewis gun, complete to British .303 ammo, 97 round drums and quite likely the 600rpm firing rate.

The B-18 rarely gets any credit because it is rarely compared to actual 1937 versions of other aircraft and the B-18 only went through 2 versions (or 3 depending on how you count the B-23), so people use the performance of 1939-40-41 aircraft with better engines and heavier armament and compare it to the unmodified B-18.

The G3M started with 910hp engines (not counting the liquid cooled V-12s in the prototypes) and ended with 1300hp engines so again we have to be careful which planes/performance we are using for the comparisons.

 

[Glider]

I admit to having a soft spot for the Do 17 in this period.

 

[Kevin J]

I admit to having a soft spot for the Do 17 in this period.

Yes, good plane, high dive speed, at 370 mph almost as good as a Hurricane. Like, you climb it up over the Channel to 10000 feet, put it into a dive, drop your bombs, and hey presto its hard to intercept.

 

[yulzari]

Yes, good plane, high dive speed, at 370 mph almost as good as a Hurricane. Like, you climb it up over the Channel to 10000 feet, put it into a dive, drop your bombs, and hey presto its hard to intercept.

Whilst I could point to that from 10,000 feet it is limiting bombing to just the coastal areas and hinterland, it is more relevant to point out that the opposition in 1937 is Gloster Gladiators with an over ground speed in the climb less than a Do17 in level flight and less notice of incoming raids than in 1940 and only half the guns. Even in level flight a Gladiator against a Do17 in level flight, the speed difference is more in the fast bicycle than fast car range.

 

[Shortround6]

Gentlemen, late 1937 saw the conversion of the production lines from the Do-17E & F to the Do-17 M & P. The Do 17Z doesn't show up until 1939.

A Do-17 with those BMW V-12s would be easy meat for a Gladiator once you get a few thousand feet up.

 

[tomo pauk]

Do-17 in 1937 was outfitted with non-supercharged engines, unike the G3M or Blenheim, 500 kg of bomb load, 5500 m service ceiling = not a contender IMO.
Blenheim I was speedy, but with an even lower bomb load, and not as rangy as G3M, not much of defensive firepower either.
The GM3 Model 11 (1st actual service model) was supposed to do 188 kt (clean? around 350 km/h), service ceiling 7500 m, carrying up to more than 1000 US gals of fuel (more than 3 times the Blenheim I).

 

[Shortround6]

Blenheim I was speedy, but with an even lower bomb load, and not as rangy as G3M, not much of defensive firepower either.

Blenheim carried it's bombs inside. The dorsal gun was a powered mount, If fitted with a Vickers K gun (not by any means guaranteed ) it had at least 50% more firepower than the Lewis copies on the G3M per gun. I don't believe the G3M turrets were powered? While the G3M can engage more fighters at the same time, it's ability to really bring more firepower onto a single target/attacker may not be as great as it appears.

G3Ms were being intercepted by Curtiss biplanes over China.

 

[tomo pauk]

Blenheim carried it's bombs inside. The dorsal gun was a powered mount, If fitted with a Vickers K gun (not by any means guaranteed ) it had at least 50% more firepower than the Lewis copies on the G3M per gun. I don't believe the G3M turrets were powered? While the G3M can engage more fighters at the same time, it's ability to really bring more firepower onto a single target/attacker may not be as great as it appears.

A G3M1, that just lost one top gunner still has another in the other top turret to man it's gun, and 'dustbin' gunner can contribute against either attacks from lower hemisphere, or to replace a dead/wounded guner. Blenheim I has no such options.

G3Ms were being intercepted by Curtiss biplanes over China.

They probably were. I'd like to see a good account on Curtiss and P-26 fighters vs. Japanese.

 

[Shortround6]

A G3M1, that just lost one top gunner still has another in the other top turret to man it's gun, and 'dustbin' gunner can contribute against either attacks from lower hemisphere, or to replace a dead/wounded guner. Blenheim I has no such options.

You are right, the Blenheim has no such options, but then the Blenheim is almost the Mosquito of 1937. Claimed top speed was 285mph at 15,000ft. (this is the MK I bomber, no gun pack, no armor, no self sealing tanks, gross weight 12,500lbs) There were very few fighters in service anywhere that could catch it.

American P-35 and P-36 would not enter squadron service until 1938, The French MS 406 would not enter squadron service until 1938. leaving the Dewoitine D.510 as the best french Fighter in service. Best service Italian fighter is the CR 32 biplane. and so on, Germany has Bf 109 s with Jumo 210s.
Japanese do have the A5M but we have to be careful with which model and engine.

The engines in the Blenheim had an FTH of 14,000ft which means most fighters slowed down faster with altitude than it did in 1937.

 

[Dimlee]

In late 1937, the G3M was probably within the top 4, together with Tupolev SB, He 111 and SM.79.

292 SB-2 bombers were delivered to China in 1937-1940. 19 of them were still active in 1943.
It would be interesting to compare losses of G3M and SB-2 in the same theatre in almost the same period. Unfortunately, I found no reliable data on the Soviet air losses in China.

 

[tomo pauk]

You are right, the Blenheim has no such options, but then the Blenheim is almost the Mosquito of 1937. Claimed top speed was 285mph at 15,000ft. (this is the MK I bomber, no gun pack, no armor, no self sealing tanks, gross weight 12,500lbs) There were very few fighters in service anywhere that could catch it.

American P-35 and P-36 would not enter squadron service until 1938, The French MS 406 would not enter squadron service until 1938. leaving the Dewoitine D.510 as the best french Fighter in service. Best service Italian fighter is the CR 32 biplane. and so on, Germany has Bf 109 s with Jumo 210s.
Japanese do have the A5M but we have to be careful with which model and engine.

The engines in the Blenheim had an FTH of 14,000ft which means most fighters slowed down faster with altitude than it did in 1937.

For the A5M, the -1 was good for 216.5 kt at 2500m (249 mph at 8200 ft), the -2 for 230 kt at 3090 m (265 mph at 10140 ft).
The best performing fighter of 1937 was probably the I-16 Type 5, supposed to do 295 mph at 10000 ft. The Hurricane seem to begin deliveries by 15th Dec 1937.

In 1937, the Tupolev SB looks to be good for 260+ mph at 13100 ft.

The Ki-27 - around 290 mph?

 

[The Basket]

Nell was a navy bomber designed to carry torpedo so range was a big deal.

The Spanish civil war is a good marker for what is state of the art for 1937.

In my view the main air defence fighter of the RAF in 1937 was the Gauntlet. So you would meet one of them more likely than a Gladiator.

 

[nuuumannn]

Yup, the Spanish Civil War and Japan's continuing war in China were the crucibles on which in-service combat aircraft were forged and therefore judged. Both conflicts were regarded with horror for their sheer brutality, which after the Great War is saying something, as much about public reaction to the nature of warfare as it was progressing, as the new means of waging war itself. Guernica was bombed on 26 April 1937, with Ju 52/3ms and He 111s comprising the main bomber types.

Its also worth mentioning that one of the world's great WW2 bombers first entered service in 1937 that hasn't been mentioned; the B-17 Flying Fortress. The first 12 Y1B-17s arrived at Langley Field between 1 March and 4 August, which was a significant step forward (despite the B-18) for the USAAC, although the 2nd Bombardment Group with its new bombers could hardly be described as combat ready.

I'd have to go with SR in his appraisal of the Blenheim 1, and his thoughts on the Whitley; it was an advanced aeroplane, but still had growing pains, despite its potential in terms of bomb load and range. Still, if Britain went to war in 1937, the Whitley was the RAF's newest heavy and it would have to do, alongside the Handley Page Heyford, of course.

Meanwhile, although the Luftwaffe had the He 111B-1 in service, which was produced in small numbers only and saw service in Spain with the Condor Legion, its primary bomber was the Ju 52/3m, with the Ju 86 being delivered in increasing numbers that year and seeing combat in Spain. The G3M represents a very modern bomber for the time with excellent performance and was proof that Japan could match existing types entering service in armed forces round the world, something it took the rest of the world a little bit of time to accept.

It was first conceived as an unarmed long range aircraft for the IJN; the first 'speed bomber', years before the Mosquito, but defensive armament was a necessity and the following 9-shi spec to which the production aircraft were built had defensive armament, crucial against Nationalist China operated US fighters, such as the Curtiss Hawk biplanes and P-26 monoplanes. Its long range saw it carry out carpet bombing of Chinese towns and cities out of range from contemporary bombers, as well as tactical bombing of military installations. Its use then, was a foreshadow of the war to come and this is often overlooked in history as in the West we turn to the Spanish Civil War as the benchmark for the forthcoming conflict, but the G3M was flying multi role combat operations at greater ranges than ever before.

Japan also operated the Mitsubishi Ki-1-II heavy bomber in China, which was not well liked in service and crews preferred the outwardly similar Ki-2-II light bomber. Both were contemporary to Junkers designs being based on the Swedish built K 37 - the G3M sharing some of this DNA in its wing and control surface configuration. These were very much contemporary performers despite being all-metal monoplane designs. The G3M was a big step forward by comparison.

 

[pinehilljoe]

Another contemporary is the Hampden. A plane I always had a softspot for. I think the pilots that flew the plane to Berlin on the early raids must have had nerves of steel.