Gear coming down when shot down?

Bad-Karma · Mar 3, 2015

Very interesting discussion guys, appreciate it.

GrauGeist said:
It would seem to me that in the event of an intercept and you were not in a position to engage, lowering the gear as a sign of surrender or distress *may* avoid attack.

However, if you're in a Fw190 (for example) and a P-47 is already ripping you to shreds, lowering the gear is probably not going to get the jug's driver to stop the attack. That point has already come and gone.

At the war's end, an Axis aircraft approaching an Allied field with gear down were allowed to pass unmolested, but in battle, most often when the gear was "lowered", it was because the aircraft had been damaged to the point where the hydraulic (or compressed air) system had been damaged (as stated above).

A Bf109's bailout procedure was to jettison the canopy and "invert" or roll the aircraft, falling free of the cockpit. It was also a recommended procedure for Spitfire pilots to do the same: undo seat harness, raise seat, unplug oxygen and mic leads, release canopy, stand up on the seat and either push the control column forward or roll (invert) the aircraft and dive away. On the otherhand, the P-38 pilots were taught NOT to invert when bailing.

I'm guessing the giant tail boom of the p38 was why p-38's were taught not to invert?

Capt. Vick said:
I live in Wantagh, the gateway to Jones Beach. Or as I call it, "The jewel in the crown that is Long Island". Had Easter brunch at the George Washington Inn one time, that's in Roslyn right?

I've spent many a college night at Mulcahy's!

Torch said:
Not to hijack the thread but I'm originally from Flushing in Queens,we used to love West End 2 at Jones beach.

NY crew unite? haha Field 6 was always our go to.

ETA: wont be able to see the video until I get home. Blocked at work and for some reason my phone doesn't get rid of the initializing banner once the video starts playing.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 3, 2015

NY crew!!! I grew up on Staten Island!

drgondog · Mar 3, 2015

99% loss of hydraulics/accumulator. Lowering one gear as you often see in combat film places enormous load on the wing as well as major yaw input to the lowered gear side.

The 'surrender' move often practiced by LW pilots was to simply bail out - and live to fight another day.

pbehn · Mar 3, 2015

drgondog said:
The 'surrender' move often practiced by LW pilots was to simply bail out - and live to fight another day.

Not over the North Sea, sadly in the account I read one flight was escorting a He111 back to Scotland when another flight just blew it out of the sky. Caused a lot of squadron discussion as to what is or isnt murder and how valuable a captured He111 and crew were as compared to a shared "kill"

stona · Mar 3, 2015

A 249 squadron pilot (Tom Neil) recalled that he and several colleagues were escorting a damaged Bf 109 which had unofficially surrendered, feeling pleased with himself and looking forward to getting a close look at the enemy aircraft, when another Hurricane suddenly appeared, closed to about 50 yards and shot the German down. Neil was so incensed that he contemplated shooting down the offending Hurricane himself.
Cheers
Steve

bobbysocks · Mar 3, 2015

pbehn said:
Not over the North Sea, sadly in the account I read one flight was escorting a He111 back to Scotland when another flight just blew it out of the sky. Caused a lot of squadron discussion as to what is or isnt murder and how valuable a captured He111 and crew were as compared to a shared "kill"

i read that account. didnt the 111 have a fire that the crew put out when they surrendered? in the account i read the RAF pilot who was escorting the lw bomber was very upset when it was shot down.

pbehn · Mar 3, 2015

bobbysocks said:
i read that account. didnt the 111 have a fire that the crew put out when they surrendered? in the account i read the RAF pilot who was escorting the lw bomber was very upset when it was shot down.

Thats it, it would have been lucky to get back to Scotland, Holland/Germany was out of the question. Like I said the RAF would much rather have the plane and crew. Did escorting a plane back to a home airfield count as a "kill"

Greyman · Mar 3, 2015

pbehn said:
I read one flight was escorting a He111 back to Scotland when another flight just blew it out of the sky.

I've read of a couple of similar incidents involving Luftwaffe seaplanes and RAF fighters during the siege of Malta.

bobbysocks · Mar 3, 2015

pbehn said:
Did escorting a plane back to a home airfield count as a "kill"

very good question...didnt technically KILL ( shoot down or damage the craft in the air) but did remove it from service to the LW. they should have recieved some accomidation for the act. that also makes me wonder about the guys to stole planes off of germans and flew home. bruce carr from the 354th FG and bob hoover were just a few of the airmen who swiped a german kite and flew it back home....wonder if those guys got credit for the ac?? or was it treated like a ground kill.....awarded at first them removed from their count back in the early 60s.

pbehn · Mar 3, 2015

bobbysocks said:
very good question...didnt technically KILL ( shoot down or damage the craft in the air) but did remove it from service to the LW. they should have recieved some accomidation for the act. that also makes me wonder about the guys to stole planes off of germans and flew home. bruce carr from the 354th FG and bob hoover were just a few of the airmen who swiped a german kite and flew it back home....wonder if those guys got credit for the ac?? or was it treated like a ground kill.....awarded at first them removed from their count back in the early 60s.

I am sure capturing an enemy AC intact would be worth much more than merely knowing one was downed. The British made a big stride in the battle of the beams when a bomber was downed and a member of the crew said to his mate "they will never find it (in German)" to his mate. One of the people there heard it and spoke German so they took the plane apart had a huge lead in beating Knickebein. Captured crews were worth a lot in info. Any A/C forced down must be damaged but with luck and work you may figure out a repair or cannibalise one for the other and then test it out.
Forcing a plane down in flyable condition on your territory must count as the ultimate "kill" I dont think it was though.

rogerwilko · Mar 3, 2015

that also makes me wonder about the guys to stole planes off of germans and flew home. bruce carr from the 354th FG and bob hoover were just a few of the airmen who swiped a german kite and flew it back home....wonder if those guys got credit for the ac?? or was it treated like a ground kill.....awarded at first them removed from their count back in the early 60s.[/QUOTE] I do wonder how on earth they could swipe a foreign plane without being familiar with it and in a foreign language.

GrauGeist · Mar 4, 2015

The story about Carr stealing the hybrid Fw190A-6/A-8 (red 31+~) has been proven to be a "tall tale". He went for a joy ride in it after the war and failed to let down the main gear and ended up bellying it in at Ansbach.

Bob Hoover, on the otherhand, was the real deal and reading about his story from the day he was shot down until he made it back to Allied lines 15 months later is fascinating (of course, stealing a Fw190 along the way).

Koopernic · Mar 4, 2015

pbehn said:
I am sure capturing an enemy AC intact would be worth much more than merely knowing one was downed. The British made a big stride in the battle of the beams when a bomber was downed and a member of the crew said to his mate "they will never find it (in German)" to his mate. One of the people there heard it and spoke German so they took the plane apart had a huge lead in beating Knickebein. Captured crews were worth a lot in info. Any A/C forced down must be damaged but with luck and work you may figure out a repair or cannibalise one for the other and then test it out.
Forcing a plane down in flyable condition on your territory must count as the ultimate "kill" I dont think it was though.

The Knickebein system was based on blind landing systems developed by the Lorentz company so it was natural to 'hide' the system as part of the FuBL (Funk Blind Landung) carried on German bombers and Me 110. It was more of a navigation system than a bombing system. The blind bombing system was X-geraet which also used beams, with multiple intersecting beams to determine wind speed and ground speed, these were far sharper and more intensively focused and used by pathfinders. By 1939 the Germans (Siemens company) were carrying out fully automated blind landings using a Ju 52 test bed: they used one horizontal beam to line up on the runway, two vertical ones to provide distance to the runway and a FuG 101a FM radar altimeter to giver height above the ground. Lorentz had world wide success with its navigation systems and so ended up being owned by a US company. As a result of this contact they were often not trusted in purchase decisions regarding radar. They developed a 30cm radar system in 1942 that might have evaded the allied jamming that became intense from 1943 onward but it was not proceeded with.

Koopernic · Mar 4, 2015

Undercarriage lowering is a sure sign the aircraft is doomed and that its time to bail out.

Most aircraft undercarriages use double acting cylinders which can both extend and retract. There would also be latches (unlocks?) operated by hydraulic switches to positively secure the undercarriage. Battle damage would lead to the hydraulic lines bleeding out and the undercarriage dropping, I imagine the unlocks would be spring loaded open so that the undercarriage will lower by gravity while locks would secure the undercarriage when lowered. It appears to be a safety feature hence the dramatic procedure of shaking the aircraft to lock the undercarriage in place.

Many early aircraft had a manually wound undercarriage and retained this feature as a backup in case of hydraulic failure.

One usual feature or the Heinkel He 162 jet was that its hydraulic cylinder was single acting to close only: it was extended by a powerfull spring. This meant that the aircraft supposedly had to be flying fair power setting in order to generate enough pressure and flow to retract. Ive heard 280 mph quoted.

Modern aircraft have started introducing more electrical systems but its hard to beat hydraulics, the solution has been to build the pump/motor/reservoir into the cylinder itself so as to prevent bleed out via hydraulic lines. Used on F-35 and A380. Circuit breakers can isolate short circuits better than flow restrictors and 'hydraulic fuses'

stona · Mar 4, 2015

Re: value of captured aircrew. Luftwaffe crews captured during the BoB were either ignorant of or ignored many basic rules of security when flying over enemy territory. The lists of documents taken from them, everything from diaries to log books, travel passes etc is quite surprising and gave the RAF's intelligence officers some good insights into what units were where and who was in them.
Cheers
Steve

bowfin · Mar 5, 2015

My great uncle was a top turret gunner in B-25s (500th BS, 345th BG 5th AF). In his last mission, his B-25 was caught in the blast of an exploding fuel dump and was enveloped in flame. As the plane burned, it burned through the hydraulic plumbing (hoses, lines?) and the landing gear came down, snapping off with one wheel hitting the vertical stabilizer.

Nathaniel Gordon picked him up in a PBY, along with all other crew members. Lots more to the story than that, but this should answer your question.

waroff · Mar 15, 2015

gumbyk said:
Not sure about other types, but the P-51 undercarriage was held up by hydraulic pressure, apparently for the reason that if there was any damage, it would come down, rather than jamming up. That's why you always see them with the landing gear doors open, on shut-down they will open, and close again when the engine starts.

on the p-51, when the a/c was on the ground and parked, the pilot pull the emergency release handle. This operation locks the landing gear handle in down position and prevent a accidentally moving to "up position". The opened valves, the fairing doors move down.
If these valves were not open, the weight of the doors and the low pressure were not enough to the doors down.
On the cylinder there are two pipes, and two valves; to move the piston the pressure is applied on one side and the opposite side, the hydraulic oil must be return in the tank. The two valves must be open. If the return valve is closed, the piston could not move.

when the pilot move the ldg handle to up or down, he opens the valves of ldg selector; the pressure goes on one side. when the ldg come up or down position, the ldg selector valves are closed again, the ldg can not move if two valves are not opened , or if two pipes are not ripped off, in same time.
arraché.

Gear coming down when shot down?

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