General der Jagdflieger

Shortround6 said:

The coupled engines may NOT have been a good idea, one estimate claims they saved about 3% in drag over 4 engine nacelles. Was the reduction in drag really worth the extra trouble? and not just the engine fires.

The Germans seem to have have spent and inordinate amount of time and effort trying to wring the last few percent of improvement out of some things when a worthwhile improvement could have been achieved with a lot less effort.

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In testing the engines worked without an issue, so when the trouble started with the He177 they thought it was a simple fix and kept going down the development rabbit hole. Its similar to the issues with the modern F35, so much time and money was poured into making the system work in its existing form that to start over and take the hit in terms of time lost in development (it would have set them back a year in development to start over with the four prop version, thanks to balance issues being very different with the longer wing) was too painful to contemplate. Eventually they were forced to, but by then it was far too late for it to make any difference.

stona said:

Re: Speer.
I can only suggest that you read Gitta Sereny's "Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth". In the end she, like the Nuremberg prosecutors, goes easy on him. We now know his "keine ahnung" was BS and that he was fully aware of just what was going on both in the extermination camps and in the forced labour programs from which he profited and his subordinate (Sauckel) was executed. Speer demanded more labour and Sauckel provided it.
This is not the place for this in any case
Cheers
Steve

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This is the second time in a week that I see you use a source to prove your point, but it actually disproves it.

I actually have read Gitta's book - and all of Speer's book - and I am very surprised with how much she is supportive of the man !
I was expecting a much more critical approach, but I can sense her personal sympathy for the man throughout the book. It is only natural: she spent years interviewing him and became quite close to him.

I think you are very right to be critical of Speer! But by only following critical indications, you make the logical fallacy to assume the opposite of what Speer and to a lesser extent Gitta have written.

Have you read Speer's book Infiltration?
Kris

Civettone said:

This is the second time in a week that I see you use a source to prove your point, but it actually disproves it.
Kris

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No it doesn't. In another post I made the point that Sereny was sympathetic to Speer but she has conceded publicly that had he been more honest, or had some evidence discovered much later been available in 1946 he would have hanged.

And yes. What I said about senior Luftwaffe officers applies to senior figures in the Nazi government, particularly those who very nearly felt a noose around their necks. What do you expect Speer to write? "I knew all about the final solution. I was perfectly well aware of where my labour came from, how these people were treated. I did attend that conference at Posen and I did hear Himmler's speech"

He created an image as the "good Nazi" who accepted responsibility whilst not knowing and maintained it until the day he died. It was absolute nonsense and completely fake.

He didn't flinch from using Himmler to threaten the old party Gauleiters when it suited him.

Cheers

Steve

Edit: it occurs to me that one man who knew it was nonsense and whose behaviour towards Speer might be explained by this at Nuremberg was Goering.

Shortround6 said:

The coupled engines may NOT have been a good idea, one estimate claims they saved about 3% in drag over 4 engine nacelles. Was the reduction in drag really worth the extra trouble? and not just the engine fires.

The Germans seem to have have spent and inordinate amount of time and effort trying to wring the last few percent of improvement out of some things when a worthwhile improvement could have been achieved with a lot less effort.

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The Manchester experience with the RR Vulture suggests that the concept was seductive but pushed a bit beyond the point of diminishing returns.

During 1943 to 1945 the Type XXI submarine program received priority. I'd hazard a guess you could mass produce Jumo 004A engines, retain electric turret motor on Panzer IVH tank, give Panther tank a more reliable final drive assembly and quite a bit more with resources consumed by the massive submarine program.

Moelders would need to convince Hitler that fighter aircraft must have priority over submarine construction. How much did Hitler respect Moelders?

davebender said:

During 1943 to 1945 the Type XXI submarine program received priority. I'd hazard a guess you could mass produce Jumo 004A engines, retain electric turret motor on Panzer IVH tank, give Panther tank a more reliable final drive assembly and quite a bit more with resources consumed by the massive submarine program.

Moelders would need to convince Hitler that fighter aircraft must have priority over submarine construction. How much did Hitler respect Moelders?

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First man to win the diamonds, first to beat Richthoven, first to 100 victories, modernized German fighter tactics over Spain - he was Boelcke reborn. I think he was very highly respected. (But, then, this is Hitler we're talking about!) I think if nothing else he would have pushed for technical superiority incessantly during his tenure and - i'm guessing, based on what I've read about him as a moulder of pilots (no pun intended) - pushed for expansion of the fighter training program.

First man to win the diamonds, first to beat Richthoven, first to 100 victories, modernized German fighter tactics over Spain - he was Boelcke reborn.

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That might earn Hitler's respect but it won't automatically earn him any political clout.

If military accomplishment = political clout then this man would have been Großadmiral. Admiral Raeder's WWI record pales in comparison. He still holds the world record for shipping tonnage sunk.
Kapitnleutnant Lothar von Arnauld de la Perire - German and Austrian U-boats of World War One - Kaiserliche Marine - uboat.net
Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière
Kapitänleutnant (Crew 4/03)

Successes
193 ships sunk with a total of 453,369 GRT
2 warships sunk with a total of 2,500 tons
8 ships damaged with a total of 34,312 GRT

Raeder was a pre-Nazi appointment; Moelders was appointed by the #2 man in the party and the top hero of the Nazi's darling military arm.

davebender said:

During 1943 to 1945 the Type XXI submarine program received priority. I'd hazard a guess you could mass produce Jumo 004A engines, retain electric turret motor on Panzer IVH tank, give Panther tank a more reliable final drive assembly and quite a bit more with resources consumed by the massive submarine program.

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It does not work like that. You can not simply take away resources from your nval construction programmes and your building docks and expect to start producing more electric engines or final drive assemblies. That is naievely simplistic!

And besides, why on earth would you want to stop submarine construction??

Anyway, your biggest mistake is that you do not know that Speer's Armaments ministry only received authrority over aircraft production in June 1944. Until then, it was Milch and Goering.

stona said:

No it doesn't. In another post I made the point that Sereny was sympathetic to Speer but she has conceded publicly that had he been more honest, or had some evidence discovered much later been available in 1946 he would have hanged.

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I have never read that. But that is not was referring to. It is your reference to Hans Fey. That just disproved what you said. Just like Gitta Sereny's book disproves what you said. Now of course you change it to what she said in public... How convenient

And yes. What I said about senior Luftwaffe officers applies to senior figures in the Nazi government, particularly those who very nearly felt a noose around their necks. What do you expect Speer to write? "I knew all about the final solution. I was perfectly well aware of where my labour came from, how these people were treated. I did attend that conference at Posen and I did hear Himmler's speech"

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Logically incosistent. "Because I am not sure it is true, I am sure it is untrue" Fact is you really do not know how much he really knew. I don't think he wanted to know and closed his eyes for it. He believed what he wanted to see. I believe this is a natural reaction, not much unlike employees finding out their company is actually responsible for arms trade to Syria or for deforestation in Africa. The right thing to do is to take a step back. But, especially if you love the power, you tell yourself it is not your problem.

Like I said before, the dilemma after WW2 was, either we shoot all of them (all accomplices, Soviet solution) or we just should those directly responsible (those giving the direct orders, US solution). Even today, there is no consensus. There is some revision though, fed by public opinion, and that is why we are now hearing of 90-year old concentration camp guards being dragged to court.

Kris

Shortround6 said:

The coupled engines may NOT have been a good idea, one estimate claims they saved about 3% in drag over 4 engine nacelles. Was the reduction in drag really worth the extra trouble? and not just the engine fires.

SR - Speculative but the four engine design was an 'add to both drag and payload if the 4 engine design a.) weighed more than the selected coupled engine, and b.) modest spar/wing weight consideration for hanging #1 and #4 on the wing

The Germans seem to have have spent and inordinate amount of time and effort trying to wring the last few percent of improvement out of some things when a worthwhile improvement could have been achieved with a lot less effort.

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Would have been a great bomber for US with four engines from the very beginning - and cancel out the dive bomb requirement to reduce weight

jim said:

Personnaly , i dont know if Moelders would be better than galland but certainly could not be worst

So what positive attributes would you lend Moelders over Galland? Skill as fighter pilot and fighter operations? Leadership? (and if so, what do you offer specifically?), Foresight regarding the threat of West based daylight operations?, The requirement and constant and early demand that air defense on the West front was required NOW (in late 1942/early 1943? (What would Moelders have done?) How would Moelders been more persuasive than Galland with either Hitler or Goering?

I wonder what good Galland offered to the Jagdwaffe. Did he influence decisions? Did protect training organisation? Did he influenced fighters evolution or production? Did he request twin stage superchargers? Did he do anything to change the catastrophic tactics of early 1944 over germany?

How about his constant and forceful recommendations in early 1944 to convert Day Fighter TO&E to all Fw 190 (and subsequent FW 190D and Ta 152) and Me 262, gather strength and deploy in big force mode rather than whittle LuftReich 3 and LufteFlotte Reich in daily battles with 8th AF? What about recommendations for centralizing LW day Fighter Force in middle Germany rather than Hitler/Goering insistence that fighter bases be scattered across Germany for 'public morale'? What about his recommendations to go after 8th AF Fighter command early and often versus Goering 'Court martial if you don't go exclusively after the bombers'.

Not to speak about his brilliant idea of exchange places of JG26 and JG54
Maybe he was overpowered by other commanders, but he should have protest and fight against them and then resign.

Kinda what he actually did do..

And in time. Not in "revolution"of January 1945. By then it was a move more for his post war fame than for practical benefit of his pilots
Moelders,Priller or Baer look to me as more appopriate charachters for the job

No evidence to support that supposition as the real question was 'how to influence Hitler"

Perhaps it would have been better for the Galland to remain in JG26.( Better for his scoring record, not his health)

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The question of Moelders as 'better choice' lies entirely on whether a.) he would understand the threat of US daylight operations, b.) have better recommendations regarding the fighter force mix, and MOST important how his influence regarding his ideas would prevail over Hitler/Goering decisions.

No evidence to support ANY LW General of Fighters (or LW) having a better plan or ability to influence acceptance of the plan with Hitler.

And the changes had to be made in late 1942/early 1943 to enable Milch/Speer to orchestrate production and priorities in time for early 1944.

Easier said then done. Sources tend to repeat each other and they mix Jumo 004A and Jumo 004B engines when discussing development. This is my understanding of key dates and events:

January 1941. Junkers Jumo-004A engine runs at full speed of 9,000 rpm.
…..Thrust of 946 lbs. RLM wants a minimum of 1,300 lbs.
…..Vibration problems in early prototypes. Max Bentele, a renowned blade vibration specialist, asked to help solve the problem.

Summer 1941. Design work begins on Jumo-004B engine.
…..Rated thrust 1,850 lbs.
…..Jumo 004B weighs 220 lbs less then Jumo 004A engine.

Aug 1941. Jumo 004A engine.
…..Thrust of 1,320 lbs. This meets the RLM specification.
…..Stator design changed to fix blade vibration.

Dec 1941. Jumo-004A engine passes 10 hour endurance test.
…..Thrust of 2,200 lbs (1,000 kg). Considerably greater then RLM specification.

18 Jul 1942. Me-262 prototype flies powered by Jumo-004A engines.
…..Based on excellent flight test results, RLM issues contract for 80 Jumo 004A engines.

1943. By the end of the year Jumo-004A has passed several 100 hour endurance tests.
…..Early Jumo 004A turbine blades had quality control problems which were solved during 1941.
…..Jumo 004B turbine blades had more serious problems which were not solved until late 1944.

31 March 1943.
As of this date Messerschmitt, Milch and Galland were still promoting Me-209 to succeed Me-109. Consequently Me-262 and other jet projects were not considered a priority.

22 April 1943. Galland flies Me-262 prototype for first time.

22 May 1943. Galland flies Me-262 prototype for second time.
After this test flight Galland committed to production of Me-262 ILO Me-209.

Summer 1943.
Jumo 004B engine prototypes experience vibration failures. Once again a blade specialist is required to diagnose problem.

12 Nov 1943. Milch commits to production of Me-262 ILO Me-209.

December 1943. Jumo 004B engine vibration problems diagnosed.
Finding and fixing vibration problems considerably more difficult and time consuming then for earlier Jumo 004A engine. Jumo 004B turbine blade design changed several times during development which undoubtedly contributed to lengthy problem resolution.

5 December 1943. Hitler endorses Me-262 production.
…..This plus Milch endorsement a month earlier finally kicks Me-262 program into top priority.



If these dates are correct Galland didn't endorse production of Me-262 ILO Me-209 until May 1943. Milch didn't get on board until Nov 1943. That's too late.

Me-262 prototype powered by Jumo 004A engines was flying during July 1942. That's when General der Jagdflieger and Milch must endorse mass production of Jumo 004A engine and Me-262 airframe.

Hello Dave
Again, there must have been reason to stop 004A development and redirect the resources to 004B development. Probably:

The 004A could not be mass-produced because of its considerable weight and its high use of nickel, cobalt, and molybdenum, but the 004B was designed to use a minimum of strategic materials. All the hot metal parts, including the combustion chamber, were changed to mild steel (SAE 1010) and were protected against oxidation by aluminum coating.

Source: Anselm Franz and the Jumo 004

004A could not be mass-produced because of its considerable weight
.....220 lbs more then 004B. Significant but hardly a deal breaker considering performance advantage of jet propulsion. In fact carrying enough fuel for those thirsty jet engines added a lot more weight then this.

high use of nickel
.....Per Albert Speer November 1943 Germany had 10 month reserve of nickel. That doesn't include nickel ore piling up at Finland mines as further increasing nickel stockpile was not considered a priority.

high use of cobalt.
.....I have yet to see German stockpile data for 1943. If you have such information please share it.

high use of molybdenum.
.....Per Albert Speer November 1943 Germany had a 7.8 month reserve of molybdenum. I suspect this also does not include ore piling up at mines.

On the flip side of the coin....
According to Albert Speer chromium was alloy metal in shortest supply. Jumo 004A engine used less chromium then DB605 engine so early production of Me-262 powered by Jumo 004A engines should do more good then harm for German strategic material stockpile.

davebender said:

004A could not be mass-produced because of its considerable weight
.....220 lbs more then 004B. Significant but hardly a deal breaker considering performance advantage of jet propulsion. In fact carrying enough fuel for those thirsty jet engines added a lot more weight then this.

high use of nickel
.....Per Albert Speer November 1943 Germany had 10 month reserve of nickel. That doesn't include nickel ore piling up at Finland mines as further increasing nickel stockpile was not considered a priority.

high use of cobalt.
.....I have yet to see German stockpile data for 1943. If you have such information please share it.

high use of molybdenum.
.....Per Albert Speer November 1943 Germany had a 7.8 month reserve of molybdenum. I suspect this also does not include ore piling up at mines.

On the flip side of the coin....
According to Albert Speer chromium was alloy metal in shortest supply. Jumo 004A engine used less chromium then DB605 engine so early production of Me-262 powered by Jumo 004A engines should do more good then harm for German strategic material stockpile.

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Considering how much the V-2 rockets used on their construction of all these materials, the problem wasn't shortages per se, but rather allocation.

davebender said:

004A could not be mass-produced because of its considerable weight
.....220 lbs more then 004B. Significant but hardly a deal breaker considering performance advantage of jet propulsion. In fact carrying enough fuel for those thirsty jet engines added a lot more weight then this.

high use of nickel
.....Per Albert Speer November 1943 Germany had 10 month reserve of nickel. That doesn't include nickel ore piling up at Finland mines as further increasing nickel stockpile was not considered a priority.

high use of cobalt.
.....I have yet to see German stockpile data for 1943. If you have such information please share it.

high use of molybdenum.
.....Per Albert Speer November 1943 Germany had a 7.8 month reserve of molybdenum. I suspect this also does not include ore piling up at mines.

On the flip side of the coin....
According to Albert Speer chromium was alloy metal in shortest supply. Jumo 004A engine used less chromium then DB605 engine so early production of Me-262 powered by Jumo 004A engines should do more good then harm for German strategic material stockpile.

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Considering how much the V-2 rockets used on their construction of all these materials, the problem wasn't shortages per se, but rather allocation.

Do you have data that shows how much alloy metal was used per V-2?

Don't get me wrong, I think V-2 program was a waste of money for WWII Germany. I have seen a claim that V-2 program used a third of German industrial alcohol production. That's significant because alcohol was used to make explosives and artillery propellant which late WWII Germany was short of. However I have no idea how much chromium, nickel, etc. was used per rocket and therefore no basis for evaluating your claim.

Saying that Germany had months worth of Nickel and Molybdenum, justifies producing any weapon which uses these amounts. These rare alloys were needed for a whole range of weapons and more importantly, machine tools.

As usual, you are judging things from 10/10 hindsight. The Germans decided to develop a Jumo 004, which required less rare alloys. Good idea, or not? Little could they predict, that it would lead to such delays.

It is all so easy ...

Kris

davebender said:

Do you have data that shows how much alloy metal was used per V-2?

Don't get me wrong, I think V-2 program was a waste of money for WWII Germany. I have seen a claim that V-2 program used a third of German industrial alcohol production. That's significant because alcohol was used to make explosives and artillery propellant which late WWII Germany was short of. However I have no idea how much chromium, nickel, etc. was used per rocket and therefore no basis for evaluating your claim.

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Sadly I don't have a source for specific amounts, just that the nozzles required high heat resistant metals such as nickel and tungsten.
https://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/docs/RocketBasics.htm

Nozzle Materials

The materials used in the fabrication of solid propellant rocket motor nozzles can be divided generally into five classes: structural materials; adhesives; sealants and greases; thermal insulators; and ablative (erodible) materials.
Structural materials are applied generally according to the maximum operating temperature to which they will be exposed.

Up to 500 °F, the most used materials are aluminum alloys and fiberglass-resin composites, both of which have high-strength-to-weight ratios, are light in weight, easily fabricated, have good corrosion resistance, and are reasonable in cost. High strength steels are used when major considerations are high strength in thin sections, or operation at the higher end of the temperature range.

Between 500 °and 1,900 °F-, the higher temperature iron, iron-nickel, nickel, cobalt, and iron-nickel-cobalt chromium base super alloys are used.

Above 1,900 F, alloys of refractory metals (capable of resisting high heat without cracking, melting or crumbling) such as molybdenum, columbium, tantalum, and tungsten provide high strength to approximately 4,500 °F. Above 4,500 °F, about the only structural materials available are graphite and pyrolytic graphic.
Aluminum alloys, fiberglass resin composites, high strength steels. Iron, iron-nickel, nickel, cobalt, iron- nickel-cobalt-chromium base alloys. Molybdenum, columbium, tantalum, tungsten. Graphite, pyrolytic graphite.
0 °F 500 °F 1,900 °F 4,500 °F

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Edit:
There is this too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket_facilities_of_World_War_II

he materials and parts for the V-2 were drawn from several suppliers.

Berlin-Lichtenberg plant of Siemans Planiawerke (blanks for exhaust steering vanes)
Meitingen plant of Siemans Planiawerke, near Augsberg (vane graphitizing machining).[13]:80
Voss Works at Sarstedt (nose cone)[5]:136
Linke-Hoffman-Busch-Werke AG in Breslau (combustion chambers)[5][2]
Weimar[5]:141 near the Buchenwald camp (electrical parts)[6]:228
Wumag Abt. Maschineenbau (Heinkel factory) in Jenbach (turbopump steam generator)[5][6]
Marienthal railway tunnel at Rebstock (electrical wiring harnesses, Meillerwagen)[5]:100
Petsamo, Finland (nickel in the 9% nickel steel for the low temp LOX tanks pipes)[8]:32

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Nothing wrong with that idea. However Jumo 004A engine should be mass produced until Jumo 004B engine is ready to replace it.