German answer to the WAllies introducing the P-47 + DTs and Mustang Mk.X in June of 1943? (3 Viewers)

[tomo pauk]

The P-47s in question carry the 108/110 drop tank under the belly, while the Mustang X has the original 180 gals of fuel internally + two British 54 US gal (45 imp gal; the type used sometimes on Hurricanes) tanks under the wings. The two Allied fighters can reach to about Hamburg or Frankfurt, and there are hundreds of these fighters in service; there is a supply of the drop tanks to support this. They give the LW defenders a proper mauling during already before the summer is over, and the things can only get worse for the LW, as well as the ones on the receiving end of the Allied bombing. Germans don't know when the long-range Spitfires will be also included - IOW, expect the worst case scenario there, too.

This is where the German answer starts, 1st tossing the ideas around, and then making the actual hardware (aircraft & the supporting bits & pieces; the Flak development can get another thread).

Note that this thread is not about what RAF aircraft gets the cameras, nor what gets sent to Russia.

 

[z42]

So you're sort of saying what if "big week" happens some 7 months earlier than historically?

What CAN they do, at short notice, beyond running in circles in a panic? Maybe not that much?

Avoid getting into high altitude fights with the Allied fighters? Yes, this would mean high altitude strategic bombing would face no fighter opposition as long as they are within escort range?

 

[tomo pauk]

So you're sort of saying what if "big week" happens some 7 months earlier than historically?

Not that it just happens, but keeps happening

What CAN they do, at short notice, beyond running in circles in a panic? Maybe not that much?

Not just on the short notice. While some plans can be put into the motion in a short time, some will need to wait into 1944 to materialize.

 

[mack8]

I imagine reviving the Fw-190C, accelerating the Fw-190D, prioritizing the Ta-152 and Me-262 jet fighters would be logical answers, together with reducing bomber and other non-fighter production. In effect a Jagernottprogram a year early. Paradoxically, this might have a worse effect on USAF and RAF offensive, they were not as powerful/numerous in 1943 as they were in 1944, and the germans would have prioritized fighter production earlier meaning many more fighters in 1944 to oppose the allies, plus they would have had more experience in learning to fight the allied fighters. So the attrition war would probably be more protracted, with much increased allied losses, slower rate of damage on critical german production such as oil etc. All in all probably a more even bloodbath in the air, and how this will affect 1944 and 1945 certainly might change significantly from the OTL events.

 

[tomo pauk]

I imagine reviving the Fw-190C, accelerating the Fw-190D, prioritizing the Ta-152 and Me-262 jet fighters would be logical answers, together with reducing bomber and other non-fighter production. In effect a Jagernottprogram a year early. Paradoxically, this might have a worse effect on USAF and RAF offensive, they were not as powerful/numerous in 1943 as they were in 1944, and the germans would have prioritized fighter production earlier meaning many more fighters in 1944 to oppose the allies, plus they would have had more experience in learning to fight the allied fighters.

The Me 410 is certainly axed, so are the Jumo-powered Ju 188s. The Ta 152 to be Ta 152 requires the Germans making 2-stage big V12s - this might've happen by mid-1994 1944 if they push really hard? Jet engines - can these be made in the required quantities come 1944? The Voksjaeger program is most likely to be around by late 1943 in the paper, with 1st examples flying by Spring of 1944; this puts a new burden on the jet engine supply.
(sorry for all the question marks)
Several things will not go in the German favor in this scenario of mine. The new and improved aircraft need to be flown by someone capable, that will be a problem with the increased attrition of 1943 vs. the historical situation. US bomber will not just grew in numbers faster, but the damage they will be dealing already in the last 3-4 months of the good weather operation would've been increased. Then, there is the fuel situation, especially with Me 262 in the picture, and despite the possible greater destruction of fuel facilities (that might or might not happen, the Allied target allocation in 1943 was not focused on the fuel infrastructure).

 

[z42]

The Ta 152 to be Ta 152 requires the Germans making 2-stage big V12s - this might've happen by mid-1994 if they push really hard?

By 1994 even the dysfunctional German engine development programs ought to be able to produce a 2-stage supercharged engine. Just requires the Wehrmacht to hold the line for another 50 years.

Jokes aside, the Ta152 family also included the 152C which IIRC wasn't particularly optimized for high altitude. So which Ta152 variant are we talking about? Ta 152H might be unnecessarily extreme, optimized for even higher altitudes?

In any case, yes they absolutely need better performance at ~25k in order to do something useful with the new Allied fighters around.

Jet engines - can these be made in the required quantities come 1944? The Voksjaeger program is most likely to be around by late 1943 in the paper, with 1st examples flying by Spring of 1944; this puts a new burden on the jet engine supply.

Un-canceling the He 280 and the HeS 30 might be the best option for getting jets into service ASAP?

The Luftwaffe's problems later in the war are lack of fuel and competent pilots. Not sure that sending hordes of very green pilots out in crap planes, even if jet powered like the Volksjäger, will accomplish much except getting them killed and wasting precious fuel.

Then, there is the fuel situation, especially with Me 262 in the picture, and despite the possible greater destruction of fuel facilities (that might or might not happen, the Allied target allocation in 1943 was not focused on the fuel infrastructure).

Jets might actually be a blessing in disguise? Yes, the early jets weren't particularly fuel efficient, but a characteristic of turbines is that they aren't very particular about the fuel, as long as it doesn't gel at altitude. No need to worry about not keeping up with the Allies in the octane race.

 

[tomo pauk]

By 1994 even the dysfunctional German engine development programs ought to be able to produce a 2-stage supercharged engine. Just requires the Wehrmacht to hold the line for another 50 years.

Jokes aside, the Ta152 family also included the 152C which IIRC wasn't particularly optimized for high altitude. So which Ta152 variant are we talking about? Ta 152H might be unnecessarily extreme, optimized for even higher altitudes?
In any case, yes they absolutely need better performance at ~25k in order to do something useful with the new Allied fighters around.

The Ta 152C was also using the engine with the 2-stage compressor, this time on the DB 603L engine. Removing the GM1 from considertaion, both of these were well suited for fight on high altitudes, and also not too shabby at lower altitudes.
Yes, they need to have the ~700 km/h fighters by at least early Spring of 1944 if these are to matter.

Un-canceling the He 280 and the HeS 30 might be the best option for getting jets into service ASAP?

That would've been a move here, indeed.

The Luftwaffe's problems later in the war are lack of fuel and competent pilots. Not sure that sending hordes of very green pilots out in crap planes, even if jet powered like the Volksjäger, will accomplish much except getting them killed and wasting precious fuel.

+1 on that.

Jets might actually be a blessing in disguise? Yes, the early jets weren't particularly fuel efficient, but a characteristic of turbines is that they aren't very particular about the fuel, as long as it doesn't gel at altitude. No need to worry about not keeping up with the Allies in the octane race.

Jets will happily go along even with the under 70 oct fuel, as well as with other fuels like the diesel or kerosene.
If that can be poured into the tanks of the 1-engined fighter, they can stretch that fuel a lot more.

 

[mack8]

I agree that Ta-152H was too extreme, just mate the C airframe with the Jumo-213E, presumably the speed would be in the same ballpark, about 730-740kph, enough to give an edge over the P-51B/D and Spitfire Mk.14?

I'm no big fan of the He-162, it was too much of a desperation plane, even if more expensive He-280 is a better plane, so have Heinkel focus on it, while Messerschmitt does same with the Me-262. The next step would be a swept wing design such as some form of Ta-183 or similar designs from other companies, but that's just a healthy dose of hindsight. Would the germans push forward their SAMs too in this TL? It would be disastruous for the allies if the germans field large numbers of jet fighters, high alt prop fighters AND effective enough SAMs.

Also, would the allies still have air superiority for D-day if the germans activate a Jagernottprogram earlier say fall 1943 or so? Butterflies, butterflies...

The above though is a fairly ideal scenario as far as german response would be to long range allied fighters in mid-1943, it's possible their actual response might not be as effective/efficient as proposals here.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'm no big fan of the He-162, it was too much of a desperation plane, even if more expensive He-280 is a better plane, so have Heinkel focus on it, while Messerschmitt does same with the Me-262.

I don't see the He162 as a synonym for an 1-engined jet fighter
Germans will need to whip up something more docile, and perhaps using the other aircraft as part donors in order to speed up the production (besides the landing gear).

Also, would the allies still have air superiority for D-day if the germans activate a Jagernottprogram earlier say fall 1943 or so? Butterflies, butterflies...

Allies would not sat idle. The obvious & historical things - a 'proper' Merlin Mustang, P-47 with more fuel and drop tanks, debugged P-38- are set in the stone. Upping the internal fuel on the Spitfires and Tempest taking place in early 1944 instead of by late summer of 1944 is also in the cards - not doing that will steal all the limelight from the British-made fighters.
There is also the effects of the earlier/higher pilots' attaition to account for, ditto for the greater number of US bombers surviving into 1944, as well as the greater impact on the German industry.

The above though is a fairly ideal scenario as far as german response would be to long range allied fighters in mid-1943, it's possible their actual response might not be as effective/efficient as proposals here.

Yeah, it took them almost through whole 1944 to came out with the Fw 190D fighter and the BMW 801S engine, despite the situation going from problematic to very serious from Autumn of 1943 to the early 1944.