German answer to the WAllies introducing the P-47 + DTs and Mustang Mk.X in June of 1943?

[z42]

I don't see the He162 as a synonym for an 1-engined jet fighter
Germans will need to whip up something more docile, and perhaps using the other aircraft as part donors in order to speed up the production (besides the landing gear).

A problem is that the first generation "Class I" jet engines were maybe too weak to produce sufficient thrust for a single engine fighter that also carries sufficient guns, fuel, armor etc.? And the war is ending before Germany gets any of their Class II engines into service (HeS 011 etc.). Though if one insists on a single engine it should be possible to do better than the He 162 by integrating the engine into the fuselage. So maybe something like a slightly downsized Me P.1101 or Ta 183 with a HeS 30?

 

[z42]

Germans did tend use lower pressures and so less temperature rise but if they are trying to fight in that 25,000-35,000ft area they really need to think about the intercoolers.

As I mentioned in "Jumo 222" and "DB 606/610" made in H16 form instead of being 24 cyl types - what gives? , for the 603L they did investigate intercoolers but determined they weren't worth the downsides of added weight and drag. Perhaps if they would have been using more boost like the Merlin they would have come to a different conclusion.

 

[tomo pauk]

A problem is that the first generation "Class I" jet engines were maybe too weak to produce sufficient thrust for a single engine fighter that also carries sufficient guns, fuel, armor etc.?

A lot of this depends how much of firepower is deemed sufficient. If just two cannons are okay (MK 108s and under), the Jumo 004 or the BMW 003 should've been sufficient, while a single HeS 8 might not be. Fuel carried - as much as the He 162, plus a drop tank? Armor for the back/head?

And the war is ending before Germany gets any of their Class II engines into service (HeS 011 etc.). Though if one insists on a single engine it should be possible to do better than the He 162 by integrating the engine into the fuselage. So maybe something like a slightly downsized Me P.1101 or Ta 183 with a HeS 30?

I don't mind the He 162 much, provided that it is made earlier and with a bigger wing, possibly a modification of the wing that is already in production.
My 'pet' projetcs are the Me 163 turned into a parts donor for a jet fighter (like some Lippsich designs), as well as the B&V P.211.02, a no-nonsense fighter with a straight wing and a lot of steel and wood used in construction.
HeS 30 looks great on paper - it was likely a missed chance by the Germans not to make more of the centrifugal jet engines as a whole?

 

[z42]

HeS 30 looks great on paper - it was likely a missed chance by the Germans not to make more of the centrifugal jet engines as a whole?

We had an entire thread devoted to German centrifugal jets at Germany goes for centrifugal flow turbojet engines? !

 

[Shortround6]

Germans try the Yak solution

for the Meak-1015.

But short endurance and needed to glide when the engine flamed out is certainly draw backs.

 

[tomo pauk]

Germans try the Yak solution
View attachment 859584
for the Meak-1015.

But short endurance and needed to glide when the engine flamed out is certainly draw backs.

Short endurance is a problem. A good deal of it can be solved with application of the drop tanks.
If a pilot is ham-fisted with the throttle, he will be also having problems with the Me 262.

BTW - I like the Jetfire better

 

[cherry blossom]

We had an entire thread devoted to German centrifugal jets at Germany goes for centrifugal flow turbojet engines? !

The HeS 30 was axial flow.

 

[z42]

The HeS 30 was axial flow.

Indeed it was. Did I claim otherwise?

 

[SaparotRob]

Was Lockheed's L-1000 axial or centrifugal flow?

 

[Shortround6]

Axial plus axial ( or multi stage centrifugal) plus reheat plus a host of other complications.
A true triumph of paper complexity overwhelming actual manufacturing capabilities and actual knowledge.

https://www.enginehistory.org/GasTurbines/EarlyGT/XJ37/XJ37.shtml

It makes the 3 spool engines of the late 60s and early 70s look simple.

 

[MIflyer]

In the real war, two-stage superchargers were being manufactured in Germany in 1945, too late to affect the war. Could they have produced these earlier? I wonder.

Where will they get the high octane gasoline? They had big problems with getting enough gasoline in the first place.

 

[tomo pauk]

Where will they get the high octane gasoline? They had big problems with getting enough gasoline in the first place.

Instead the BMW 801, have the 2-stage engines use the high octane fuel.
OTOH, the German 2-stage engines (besides the DB 605L) were using the 87 oct fuel. Not every engine was a small engine, like the Merlin or V-1710, that needed every droplet of the boost to perform great.

 

[MIflyer]

OTOH, the German 2-stage engines (besides the DB 605L) were using the 87 oct fuel. Not every engine was a small engine, like the Merlin or V-1710, that needed every droplet of the boost to perform great.

OKay, if you have the room for a lot more cubes.

 

[tomo pauk]

OKay, if you have the room for a lot more cubes.

They already have more cubes.

 

[andy1967]

A multifaceted approach would be required. Heavy night time bombing raids with both short and long timed fuses to cause as much disruption as possible on UK Airfields.Also low level fw190 Jabo Daytime raids.Equip Me 109Gs with jettisonable ROTA to improve climb to height.Enage the Allies as early as possible to force dropping of drop tanks.Multi waves of attack. Losses would be high but in 1943 after El Alemein, Stalingrad and shortly before the Invasion of Sicily it really was "The end of the beginning "

 

[mack8]

Some engines' possibilities:
- Turboed BMW 801 for the Fw 190, like found on this drawing. Benefits - BMW (the maker of that turbo) can probably make more of these than they can make the jet engines; power at high altitudes is excellent; turbo ancilliaries are reasonably tucked in. Shortcoming - the stream of the hot exhausts still coming towards the windscreen. Probably get rid of the fuselage guns & ammo, and add the 'plug' as on the D9 to counter-ballance the now heavier nose.
- The BMW 801 with a proper S/C. Low-hanging fruit is the S/C from the 801E, the best would've been the 2-stage S/C, like on the BMW 801R, or the P.8028 engine (that shared the layout of the P&W 2-stagers).
- Get the DB to have the DB 605AS equivalent in the works. It will take a bit to debug the basic 605, but the 605AS is the top priority after that.
- Not really an 'engine possibility', but design the blended external intakes for the Fw 190, so the altitude power can be improved without being to draggy. Like on the La-7, or like this for the actual Fw 190 (note also the improved oil cooler installation for lower drag) - too late, of course.

Jamming a jet engine in/on the Fw 190 or Bf 109?

Well, rather than fancy turbos or even a multistage 801, just having them get ready for production asap something like the BMW-801S for jabos and medium altitude work, and the DB-603L and Jumo-213E for high altitude work wuld be a great step forward. I do agree about the asap production of DB-605AS/D for Bf-109 so that it remains relevant. So between late model Bf-109G/Ks, Fw-190C/Ds for medium alt, Ta-152B/C/D(?) for high altitude, and late Fw-190A/F jabos, they would have had most of the needs covered.

Apart from that, jets asap, lots of them, Me-262 and perhaps He-280 (or rather a 380?). Single engine jets are also very appealing, but imo the Jumo-004/BMW-003 are too weak for that, and desperation fighters like He-162 are not suitable imo. They need more powerful engines like the HeS-011 or DB-007, but these have to be redesigned completely without the fancy and impractical features of OTL, just scaled up designs of existing axials with a minimum of new features to speed up development, however even so there might not be enough time. But if they somehow pull it off then single engine transonic fighters akin to Ta-183 or Me P1101 are just about feasible.

 

[ssnider]

One small thing that might have helped the Germans is to use the ram air cowling on the FW 190. It would increase the top speed by about 15 mph at just over 23000 ft. compared to the normal max at 20000 ft. Not a game changer but should make the FW 190 more survivable attacking bombers. The downside is the loss ot 5 -10 mph top speed at low altitudes.

 

[tomo pauk]

Well, rather than fancy turbos or even a multistage 801, just having them get ready for production asap something like the BMW-801S for jabos and medium altitude work,

One small thing that might have helped the Germans is to use the ram air cowling on the FW 190. It would increase the top speed by about 15 mph at just over 23000 ft. compared to the normal max at 20000 ft. Not a game changer but should make the FW 190 more survivable attacking bombers. The downside is the loss ot 5 -10 mph top speed at low altitudes.

Combine the two (801S + external air intakes) + delete the two HMGs = equivalent of the Fw 190D-9 performance-wise. It would've been very useful on all altitudes.
Granted, a Fw 190 tailored for the Eastern front can do just fine with the internal intakes.

In theory (indeed, all of this is just theory ), GM1 might've been useful.

Apart from that, jets asap, lots of them, Me-262 and perhaps He-280 (or rather a 380?). Single engine jets are also very appealing, but imo the Jumo-004/BMW-003 are too weak for that, and desperation fighters like He-162 are not suitable imo. They need more powerful engines like the HeS-011 or DB-007, but these have to be redesigned completely without the fancy and impractical features of OTL, just scaled up designs of existing axials with a minimum of new features to speed up development, however even so there might not be enough time. But if they somehow pull it off then single engine transonic fighters akin to Ta-183 or Me P1101 are just about feasible.

Problem that LW had was that that the fighter force that has the performance on par with the Allied best is not good enough, since the Allies also have the numerical advantage. Piston-engine power will not cut it here, so it is all on the jet engines to provide the extra performance needed.

 

[bf109xxl]

Germans try the Yak solution
View attachment 859584
for the Meak-1015.

But short endurance and needed to glide when the engine flamed out is certainly draw backs.

First, the Germans had to find a source of nickel so that the combustion chambers could operate for more than 10-15 hours.

 

[MIflyer]

I wonder what would have happened if they had put the V-1650-1 into not the P-40F and P-40L but in the P-51A. It would not have been as good as the V-1650-3 in the P-51B but it would have been a darn sight better than anything else the Allies had available.

They already have more cubes.

Preciseackly!