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It wasn't Just the spies Soren. The following is an example of how poor, some would say inept, Strategic Intelligence played a large part in the failure of the war in Russia.
I never had a problem with the SS commandoes, or even with the Abwehr special forces units. the failure of the German special forces was at its command levels, and with co-ordination. It also suffered in its espionage efforts which are largely a failure
It was pretty much just the spies Glider. The intel blunder you just mentioned happened for the Allies as-well and wasn't an uncommon mistake in war.
Freebird, why not consider a German attack on the Panama Canal?
Knocking that out for a few weeks or more WOULD have an impact on allied naval operations!
Soren
I take it you can find something to support your statement. Missing 160 divisions is a little careless in particular as the British, Japanese, Finns and Japanese had closer figures and they were not going to war with Russia.
I have a number of other examples and this is but one.
Be fair, I did offer you the choice of types of intelligence and you didn't make one, so I am giving a fair example of each.
If you wish I can give more on this topic.
Your choice
Actually Glider, the Allies had more than a little luck on this one. According to Brooke, while in France in 1940 some of Monty's troops {his division} captured an almost complete "TO E" for the German army, listing the strengths deployments of about 90% of the German divisions. After this intelligence coup, the British were from then on fairly well aware of German deployments.
Luckily for the Allies the Germans never got hold of the British strengths in 1940, they over-estimated the available British troops by 50% - 100%
Sorry about any dissapointments everyone
Oh well never mind I will just keep watching "The Needle"
As for their effectiveness I believe the truth is a bit of both.
The attack on the Wurtzberg Radar was a definate success. It had a millitary aim and achieved it as well as waking the Germans up.
Sorry I wouldn't know about its compossition, so I might forward that a Mossie could have done the job as well?
The SOE missions had a large measure of success that proved of great assistance in the war and tied the Germans down. Not all of them but a good many. They also gave good intel as to developments for example, parts of the V2 were smuggled back long before they started firing them at the UK.
Indeed a great job, but where is the benefit? it never enabled Britan to build one themselves or to do anything against it.
No doubt a good few were mainly for propaganda and morale benefits but these shouldn't be ignored.
IIRC Rommel almost had it, if that "giant guard" hadn't been in between the doors.
German forces in Europe couldn't have been that happy knowing that the British were moving men and materials in and out of the continent almost at will.
AFAIK even before or after Dieppe, the garrison strenght in France remained unchanged. It was just that the existing garrison units were deployed differently
Look at it the other way. Just after the fall of France the whole of the UK was at best very jumpy about an invasion, as worst close to panic. If the Germans had launched a few hit raids, the impact may well have been mainly on the morale of the population, but what an impact it might have been.
Agree, but since there was no follow up possibility - Sealion was just propaganda IMO - it would not have contributed or changed anything.
IMO the British realized that they didn't have much in regards to their conventional forces and as such had no choice but to come up with some sort of additional support - so the Commando idea to me sounds good - It just seems overrated to me, but I think this is more due to movies and book authors looking for some "big $$ topic" rather then the British Army itsself making it look so fantastic and acctually permitting details.
In the DSO in which I served last, the "KSK" is a part of it. The Bundeswehr itsself is not creating a nimbus or aura around this unit. Acctual missions are classified and not known to anyone. Those who participated are trained and possess a selected character that ensures secrecy. And yet all over the internet and bookstores and even movies this unit is highlighted as if the authors would have been members, and novelist ideas and stories are placed on the market.
Off course there are a lot of "ex" members, which IMO have a tendency to fantasis or exagerate on the topic and hide the fact that even within the so called elite there is another elite.
Just as the KSK aprox. 1500 men and a "core" of less then 80, and I have never encountered any of these "core" members bragging around and giving details.
So the acctual contribution in fact remains a secret. 8)
In the DSO in which I served last, the "KSK" is a part of it. The Bundeswehr itsself is not creating a nimbus or aura around this unit. Acctual missions are classified and not known to anyone. Those who participated are trained and possess a selected character that ensures secrecy. And yet all over the internet and bookstores and even movies this unit is highlighted as if the authors would have been members, and novelist ideas and stories are placed on the market.
Off course there are a lot of "ex" members, which IMO have a tendency to fantasis or exagerate on the topic and hide the fact that even within the so called elite there is another elite.
Just as the KSK aprox. 1500 men and a "core" of less then 80, and I have never encountered any of these "core" members bragging around and giving details.
So the acctual contribution in fact remains a secret.
As for their effectiveness I believe the truth is a bit of both.
The attack on the Wurtzberg Radar was a definate success. It had a millitary aim and achieved it as well as waking the Germans up.
Sorry I wouldn't know about its compossition, so I might forward that a Mossie could have done the job as well?
Kruska
This attack was a little different. The objective wasn't to destroy the radar, that as you say could have been done in a number of ways.
The objective was to land, take control of the radar, then dismantle the key components and then bring them back to the UK. This would give the British scientists a chance to investigate the latest radar developments with the obvious intention of designing countermeasures.
They landed by parachute and withdrew by sea.
The following link may be of interest.
Bruneval
Brandenburgers, FallschirmJägers AND members of the JagdVerbände all participated in the rescue of Mussolini
The brandenburgers did not serve as a brandenburger unit AFAIK. They were under the control, and serving as members of the JGDV.....i am not as sure about the FJ units however, i think they were an identifieable separate unit
Hello parsifal,
Mussolini, Not quite: the Jadverbaende SS were only instituted in September 1944 and in Oktober 1944 the Div. Brandenburg (formerly an independent Wehrmacht unit) was incorporated into the SS Jagdverbaende. These Jagdverbaende however were primarily towards anti partisan duties and not really considered in the term of a British Commando Unit.
The Fallschirmjaeger never had Jagdverbaende. Only the SS Fall. 600 was also integrated into the SS JV.
Regards
Kruska
The brandenburgers did not serve as a brandenburger unit AFAIK. They were under the control, and serving as members of the JGDV.....i am not as sure about the FJ units however, i think they were an identifieable separate unit
Unless you have very specific evidence to the contrary, i dont think this is true.
Most attacks were against supply columns or depots, or airfields. The airfields attacked were a mix of italian controlled, and german controlled. and the truck convoys were again a mixture of german, italian, and italian-german. Increasingly however the logistic services were being run by the germans, because the italians were increasingly being relegated to the sidelines as 1942 wore on.
Some source material i have read suggest the attacks were roughly in the order of 60% against the italians, and 40% against the germans. Beyond that i cannot be any more specific. if you have better material, I would like to see it, but i do not think you can dismiss the attacks as just being against the italians, just because they were rear area attacks
It was a complete balls up, thats true, but more because of just bad luck than bad planning. The stuff up incidentally arose because of an SAS stuff up, fromm memory. The fact that the mission could be seriously considered is a pretty good snapshot as to the effectiveness of the British Special forces by that time.