Getting P-40 into the air quickly

[fubar57]

Something to compare times with....from the same era...........from this site...Lesser Known Facts of WWII 1941 ignore the other rhetoric

" Contrary to popular belief, it was the Hurricane, not the Spitfire that saved Britain during the dark days of 1940. The turn-around time (re-arm, refuel etc.) for the Spitfire was 26 minutes. That of the Hurricane, only 9 minutes from down to up again. During the Battle of Britain the time spent on the ground was crucial and as one fitter/mechanic of No. 145 Squadron quipped: "If we had nothing but Spits we would have lost the fight in 1940." The Spitfire was an all metal fighter, slightly faster, had a faster rate of climb and had a higher ceiling, while the Hurricane had a fabric covered fuselage, was quicker to repair and withstood more punishment. With the for's and against's of both fighters they came out about even. The majority of German planes shot down during the four month period were destroyed by Hurricanes. For much of the Battle of Britain, the Spitfires went after the German BF 109s at the higher altitudes, while the Hurricanes attacked the bomber............."​

 

[Greg Boeser]

During the attack, Lt. Rasmussen (in his pajamas), found an undamaged P-36, started it up and taxied to a revetment to have it armed. From there, he took off and joined the battle.

So that's another indication that aircraft out on the line contained fuel.

David Aiken did an article in Air Journal in 2002 that focused on the dogfight over Kaneohe NAS. The 46th Pursuit Squadron at Wheeler Field put up four P-36s after the first wave had departed. The aircraft had been shielded from attack by the smoke of the burning P-40s. The pilots were 1LT Sanders, 2LT Rasmussen, 2LT Thacker and 2LT Stirling. The aircraft were not armed and the weapons had to be rescued from the burning armory before being installed. They engaged a flight of 6 Zeroes, which were joined by three more, and claimed 3, but Lt Sterling was shot down and lost. All Japanese aircraft returned to their carrier, but several were damaged enough to be scrapped. The Americans did not simply jump into an awaiting fighter. The aircraft had to be readied and the pilots were selected for the flight, though Sterling replaced one pilot who had not brought his parachute.

 

[pinsog]

David Aiken did an article in Air Journal in 2002 that focused on the dogfight over Kaneohe NAS. The 46th Pursuit Squadron at Wheeler Field put up four P-36s after the first wave had departed. The aircraft had been shielded from attack by the smoke of the burning P-40s. The pilots were 1LT Sanders, 2LT Rasmussen, 2LT Thacker and 2LT Stirling. The aircraft were not armed and the weapons had to be rescued from the burning armory before being installed. They engaged a flight of 6 Zeroes, which were joined by three more, and claimed 3, but Lt Sterling was shot down and lost. All Japanese aircraft returned to their carrier, but several were damaged enough to be scrapped. The Americans did not simply jump into an awaiting fighter. The aircraft had to be readied and the pilots were selected for the flight, though Sterling replaced one pilot who had not brought his parachute.

What were those P36's armed with? Was it 1 30 and 1 50? Or did they only get the 1 30 installed for that flight?

 

[Greg Boeser]

They had one of each.
Lt Brown and Dains of the 47th Pursuit went up with only a single .30. Brown got two B5Ns.

 

[GrauGeist]

Rasmussen downed an A6M with his .50 MG, as his .30 MG had jammed.

And I'm pretty sure they rescued the ammunition from the building, as the P-36s all had weapons (one .50 MG, one .30 MG - both cowl-mounted) just no ammunition.

 

[pinsog]

Thanks guys. I knew standard armament was 1 30 and 1 50. I had read one account of a P36 pilot at Pearl Harbor that said he only had 1 30 loaded, not sure if the 50 had no ammo or if it had been removed.

 

[GrauGeist]

Thanks guys. I knew standard armament was 1 30 and 1 50. I had read one account of a P36 pilot at Pearl Harbor that said he only had 1 30 loaded, not sure if the 50 had no ammo or if it had been removed.

By and large, ammunition was stored in the ammunition lockers and very few aircraft were armed up on that Sunday morning.

Some aircraft were armed as there were routine patrols and during the weekend, those patrols were assigned to the new guys (FNGs) while the ranking guys slept in or were off doing other things.

Like I mentioned earlier, my Uncle Jimmy would have been able to join in the fray, but his P-36 was had no ammo...and the ordnance officer was off for the weekend...

 

[The Basket]

Them saying about the F-15 gotta remember that F-14s faced Zeroes where a modern carrier went back in time. So I have no problem with F-14 v Zero coz I seen it.

Zero almost got a maneuver kill so let's not be hasty.

My gist is that on the day of infamy, there was a radar report of large group of aircraft. That report was rejected. So in essence, it wasn't a surprise attack just an ignored one. So my query is had the report been taken seriously and history been different...what would have happened with the battle? The Vals and Judys could be shot down with a peashooter so a fully armed P-40 or P-36 should have a jamboree.

During the Battle of Britain, that was a fully equipped, fully prepared fighter force fighting a war. Not an easy as Sunday morning sunny day at breakfast time.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

How the hell did the F-102's and F-106's manage to go from start-up to the start of the runway in 2 minutes?

The same way our hot pad F4s did in Key West in the seventies - by sitting there plugged into ground power with their gyros spun up and their radars powered up and in standby mode. Flight crews waited in an air conditioned line shack, all suited up and sweating and itching. Before inertial nav came along, getting a jet launched was a quicker and simpler operation. Now back to Pearl Harbor.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

So my query is had the report been taken seriously and history been different...what would have happened with the battle?

Wouldn't this make a great movie? The alert from Washington mentions the possibility of an actual physical attack rather than the assumption of sabotage. The departure of the B17s from California and an accurate ETA and flight path into Hawaii is transmitted and received in real time. All defenses are on alert, AA ammunition accessible, fighters dispersed, fueled and armed, crews on alert status. B17s already in Hawaii fueled and munitioned, and somebody more senior than a Lieutenant manning the CP. At first report from the north facing radar, all fighters are scrambled and sent off to do their climbing out of sight to the south and await confirmation of the nature of the incoming bogies.
When the Japanese strike force arrives over Pearl, no airborne fighters are to be seen, because they are looking down, not up, and the "Tora Tora" call is made. That's when the P40s and P36s dive to the attack.
Meanwhile, all available Catalinas are launched and sent to a rally point to the west of the islands, awaiting confirmation of the nature of the event. Upon confirmation, they are sent out to search the reciprocal bearing of the incoming flight. Kido Butai is sighted and reported just as they are readying their second wave launch. Every bomb capable machine in the islands is sent after it, as well as the air groups from the carriers inbound from Midway and Wake, who have been tipped off as to what's happening at Pearl. The battle of Midway happens six months early, and the Americans go on thinking of the Japanese as copycats and incompetent purveyors of cheap junk.
Now for a producer and a scriptwriter.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[pinsog]

Wouldn't this make a great movie? The alert from Washington mentions the possibility of an actual physical attack rather than the assumption of sabotage. The departure of the B17s from California and an accurate ETA and flight path into Hawaii is transmitted and received in real time. All defenses are on alert, AA ammunition accessible, fighters dispersed, fueled and armed, crews on alert status. B17s already in Hawaii fueled and munitioned, and somebody more senior than a Lieutenant manning the CP. At first report from the north facing radar, all fighters are scrambled and sent off to do their climbing out of sight to the south and await confirmation of the nature of the incoming bogies.
When the Japanese strike force arrives over Pearl, no airborne fighters are to be seen, because they are looking down, not up, and the "Tora Tora" call is made. That's when the P40s and P36s dive to the attack.
Meanwhile, all available Catalinas are launched and sent to a rally point to the west of the islands, awaiting confirmation of the nature of the event. Upon confirmation, they are sent out to search the reciprocal bearing of the incoming flight. Kido Butai is sighted and reported just as they are readying their second wave launch. Every bomb capable machine in the islands is sent after it, as well as the air groups from the carriers inbound from Midway and Wake, who have been tipped off as to what's happening at Pearl. The battle of Midway happens six months early, and the Americans go on thinking of the Japanese as copycats and incompetent purveyors of cheap junk.
Now for a producer and a scriptwriter.
Cheers,
Wes

I love the idea. I think the P36's and P40's along with the few F4F-3 Wildcats would have done well against the bombers with the P36's doing best against the Zero's.

What about the strike against the Japanese carriers? The B17's proved themselves pretty useless against moving ships for most of the war. We had a few A20's on the island (I think) but they would have struck from higher up, I'm guessing 10,000 feet. (Too bad they didn't know about skip bombing yet. I don't think they could have stopped a skipbonbing attack from a decent sized group of A20's, those things were FAST!) What are your thoughts?

 

[Zipper730]

The same way our hot pad F4s did in Key West in the seventies - by sitting there plugged into ground power with their gyros spun up and their radars powered up and in standby mode. Flight crews waited in an air conditioned line shack, all suited up and sweating and itching. Before inertial nav came along, getting a jet launched was a quicker and simpler operation.

When was INS added to jet-aircraft?

Now back to Pearl Harbor.

I'm kind of impressed they managed to get any aircraft up in the air. One problem I remember was that the radar station seemed to be under the misguided impression that the radar-returns were B-17.

 

[Zipper730]

The same way our hot pad F4s did in Key West in the seventies - by sitting there plugged into ground power with their gyros spun up and their radars powered up and in standby mode. Flight crews waited in an air conditioned line shack, all suited up and sweating and itching. Before inertial nav came along, getting a jet launched was a quicker and simpler operation.

When was INS added to jet-aircraft?

Now back to Pearl Harbor.

I'm kind of impressed they managed to get any aircraft up in the air.

Something to compare times with....from the same era...........from this site...Lesser Known Facts of WWII 1941 ignore the other rhetoric

" Contrary to popular belief, it was the Hurricane, not the Spitfire that saved Britain during the dark days of 1940. The turn-around time (re-arm, refuel etc.) for the Spitfire was 26 minutes. That of the Hurricane, only 9 minutes from down to up again. During the Battle of Britain the time spent on the ground was crucial and as one fitter/mechanic of No. 145 Squadron quipped: "If we had nothing but Spits we would have lost the fight in 1940." The Spitfire was an all metal fighter, slightly faster, had a faster rate of climb and had a higher ceiling, while the Hurricane had a fabric covered fuselage, was quicker to repair and withstood more punishment. With the for's and against's of both fighters they came out about even. The majority of German planes shot down during the four month period were destroyed by Hurricanes. For much of the Battle of Britain, the Spitfires went after the German BF 109s at the higher altitudes, while the Hurricanes attacked the bomber............."​

That's actually true. Ironically, from what I remember, the fabric structure sometimes wouldn't detonate HE rounds. Ironically soft worked better than hard.

 

[MIflyer]

Add in the A-20's they launched later that day then following the IJN aircraft back to their carriers rather than looking for an enemy carrier reported to be off Diamond Head.

Now, did the IJN carriers leave a Combat Air Patrol overhead while their attacks were underway? I doubt it; I think they launched everything at PH. So the A-20's would have sown Havoc in a fleet that had only aircraft low on fuel and ammo, flown by tired crews.

 

[pinsog]

Add in the A-20's they launched later that day then following the IJN aircraft back to their carriers rather than looking for an enemy carrier reported to be off Diamond Head.

Now, did the IJN carriers leave a Combat Air Patrol overhead while their attacks were underway? I doubt it; I think they launched everything at PH. So the A-20's would have sown Havoc in a fleet that had only aircraft low on fuel and ammo, flown by tired crews.

Actually I think they did have a CAP of around 36 Zero's. It would have been very irresponsible of them not to even though there was no need.

 

[MIflyer]

36 Zeros sounds like a remarkably large number for a CAP. At Midway, when VT-8 showed up they had about seven Zeros in their CAP. VT-8 apparently shot down one of the Zeros and they launched at least another 40. At least some of those must have been planned as strike aircraft escorts, since they were carrying drop tanks. So when the Yorktown TBD force showed up the six escorting F4F's were very badly outnumbered and almost totally ineffective, although they did shoot down probably at least six Zeros while losing one F4F. Thatch had too much on his hands to keep count of the kills.

 

[fubar57]

From here....The Pearl Harbor Strike Force, Kido Butai

 

[Greg Boeser]

36 Zeros held back for CAP. They would be rotating in shifts, so not all milling about in the air all day.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Actually I think they did have a CAP of around 36 Zero's.

36 Zeros sounds like a remarkably large number for a CAP.

Well, considering what percentage of Japan's offensive naval forces Kido Butai represented, thirty six Zeroes sounds like cheap insurance. (But Iet's not ruin the plot of our movie!)
I remember reading a memoir by a Japanese ace who was at Pearl Harbor - almost. After all the build up and preparation for the mission to Pearl, he got assigned to CAP over the fleet and missed the show.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[GrauGeist]

An interesting sidenote: the Enterprise and her group were approaching Pearl that morning and the group was on full military alert.

The SBDs that arrived at Pearl during the attack were concluding a scouting sweep and were fully armed.