Getting P-40 into the air quickly

GrauGeist said:

At 1:20 a.m. on 7 December, Admiral Nagumo received a message sent to him by Takeo Yoshikawa, an IJN officer working undercover at the Japanese Consulate in Honolulu.

The message read:
"Vessels moored in harbor: 9 battleships; 3 class B cruisers; 3 seaplane tenders, 17 destroyers. Entering harbor are 4 class B cruisers; 3 destroyers. All aircraft carriers and heavy cruisers have departed harbor….No indication of any changes in U.S. Fleet or anything unusual."

So Nagumo knew the carriers weren't there - which is why he made the decision to cancel the third strike, because he knew the carriers were out there somewhere. And rightly so, the Enterprise, which was approaching Oahu, was perhaps the closest and could have been easily moved into striking range.had the USN known the location of the Japanese fleet.

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Moving the USS Enterprise within striking distance of the Japanese fleet at Pearl Harbor would have only resulted in the loss of the Enterprise and probably her entire battle group in exchange for probably nothing. The 6 Japanese carriers had around 145 Kate's, and over a hundred Val's and over a hundred Zeros, all pilots were highly trained and the Kate's were equipped with the best torpedo in the world at the time. . The Enterprise had 14 Wildcats.

At best the Enterprise could have flown her entire air wing to Hawaii and then run at best speed away from the Japanese and turning for California when possible. Anything else would have been catastrophic

pinsog said:

Moving the USS Enterprise within striking distance of the Japanese fleet at Pearl Harbor would have only resulted in the loss of the Enterprise and probably her entire battle group in exchange for probably nothing. The 6 Japanese carriers had around 145 Kate's, and over a hundred Val's and over a hundred Zeros, all pilots were highly trained and the Kate's were equipped with the best torpedo in the world at the time. . The Enterprise had 14 Wildcats.

At best the Enterprise could have flown her entire air wing to Hawaii and then run at best speed away from the Japanese and turning for California when possible. Anything else would have been catastrophic

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Your probably right if the Enterprise waits to recover her planes but im thinking of a third option. Enterprise gets within range, launches the strike, and as soon as the planes are off high tales it. After hopefully a at least somewhat successful strike the planes land in Hawaii.

michael rauls said:

Your probably right if the Enterprise waits to recover her planes but im thinking of a third option. Enterprise gets within range, launches the strike, and as soon as the planes are off high tales it. After hopefully a at least somewhat successful strike the planes land in Hawaii.

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There were more Zeros on the 6 carriers than all the planes combined on the Enterprise. I doubt anyone would have survived and all you would do is waste trained, high timed Navy fighter and bomber pilots and crew that we could not afford to lose.

You all are working with what we know in hindsight.
Imagine if you were Nagumo and only knew that there were no carriers at Pearl Harbour and that the American carriers had to be out there somewhere. If damaged, USN carriers can limp back to Hawaii or Midway or any number of places. IJN has no place to go.

Imagine if you are on Enterprise. You just know that Pearl Harbor was attacked but not the kind of forces that you might be facing.

What would each commander decide in that situation?

- Ivan.

I didn't wanna mention the killed pilot cos it could open a can of worms.
Still died though.
The Zero was not perfect... What was? But on BoB always guy saying 303 not powerful enough needs cannon and Zero has cannon but not enough rounds. Can't win!
IJN needed radar and that was the short and tall of that.

No idea what would have happened if the USN found the carriers or vice versa. Nagumo might turn and run cos he has fulfilled his mission and he was fearful of what could be coming after him. If you got one carrier then you may have more.

One carrier against six. That's gonna be a noodle scratcher.

The Japanese were aggressive and were attacking Pearl Harbor specifically looking for carriers. If they found Enterprise they would have probably used half their strength to attack her while retaining the other half in case more showed up. 170 plane strike against Enterprise with 14 Wildcats?

What would I have done back then with no knowledge of what happened? I would not have attacked, I would assume I was outnumbered since no one would attack Pearl Harbor with only 1 carrier. I would probably have scouted just to find them and avoid them and see how the situation developed

Also, there is 'just damaged' and there is 'attacked by 170 planes and hit by so many bombs and torpedoes that you can't tell what kind of ship this used to be' damaged. I tend to think that the latter is more probable than the former.

pinsog said:

The Japanese were aggressive and were attacking Pearl Harbor specifically looking for carriers. If they found Enterprise they would have probably used half their strength to attack her while retaining the other half in case more showed up. 170 plane strike against Enterprise with 14 Wildcats?

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Hello Pinsog,

Again, you are coming in with knowledge that the Enterprise CO probably didn't have at the time. He knows Pearl Harbour was attacked. Does he know by what level of forces? Did the enemy commit ALL forces in the attack? Are there multiple enemy carrier fleets?
WE know from history. They didn't at the time. Folks were even thinking an invasion was coming.

Also, the Japanese were kind of schizophrenic as I see it. Some were aggressive. Nagumo from what I have read about him was more on the cautious site. Perhaps a little TOO cautious as it turned out.

He wasn't the first overly cautious commander. Bismarck versus Prince of Wales was another such case.

The Japanese were trying to emulate the success of the British raid on Taranto harbor and had already done extremely well in comparison. As others have pointed out, the result of this attack really didn't matter in the long run.

- Ivan.

The IJN did have Tone and Chikuma as part of the attack on Pearl so I would have to assume launched float planes to search for carriers or other USN ships abroad.

Since I never heard it mentioned I would have to assume there was no plan for carrier v carrier action at Pearl. IJN was at full stretch and hanging around is a good way to lose ships. Nagumo didn't have Wikipedia so he had no idea what's over the horizon.

I agree with no 3rd wave but if a carrier was on its own then he has to go for it. Timid or not.

Ivan1GFP said:

Hello Pinsog,

Again, you are coming in with knowledge that the Enterprise CO probably didn't have at the time. He knows Pearl Harbour was attacked. Does he know by what level of forces? Did the enemy commit ALL forces in the attack? Are there multiple enemy carrier fleets?
WE know from history. They didn't at the time. Folks were even thinking an invasion was coming.

Also, the Japanese were kind of schizophrenic as I see it. Some were aggressive. Nagumo from what I have read about him was more on the cautious site. Perhaps a little TOO cautious as it turned out.

He wasn't the first overly cautious commander. Bismarck versus Prince of Wales was another such case.

The Japanese were trying to emulate the success of the British raid on Taranto harbor and had already done extremely well in comparison. As others have pointed out, the result of this attack really didn't matter in the long run.

- Ivan.

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I see your point of view, but if Nagumo did a recon and found a single carrier or was attacked by the small amount of aircraft the Enterprise could have put up and he didn't attack and sink it when having a 6-1 advantage then when he got home at best he would be fired and at worst he would have been shot.

Obviously even if we try we can't block out our knowledge of history when trying to replay this. But just using common sense, Pearl Harbor was a major installation with major air assets stationed at multiple airfields all over the island. Only a complete moron would consider attacking an installation like that with only 1 carrier. If they had only brought 2 carriers then Enterprise is still outnumbered 2 to 1 and only has 14 Wildcats total. Of course we all know history and carrier tactics were in their infancy, but it's hard for me to believe that they would let a fleet carrier leave port with 14 fighters. Even though carrier battles have never happened, as the captain of the Enterprise I would be looking at the 36 or so SBD dive bombers and 15 or so Devastator torpedo planes, then looking at my 14 wildcats and thinking "I can't defend this ship against another just like it, I need more fighters"

pinsog said:

I see your point of view, but if Nagumo did a recon and found a single carrier or was attacked by the small amount of aircraft the Enterprise could have put up and he didn't attack and sink it when having a 6-1 advantage then when he got home at best he would be fired and at worst he would have been shot.

Obviously even if we try we can't block out our knowledge of history when trying to replay this. But just using common sense, Pearl Harbor was a major installation with major air assets stationed at multiple airfields all over the island. Only a complete moron would consider attacking an installation like that with only 1 carrier. If they had only brought 2 carriers then Enterprise is still outnumbered 2 to 1 and only has 14 Wildcats total. Of course we all know history and carrier tactics were in their infancy, but it's hard for me to believe that they would let a fleet carrier leave port with 14 fighters. Even though carrier battles have never happened, as the captain of the Enterprise I would be looking at the 36 or so SBD dive bombers and 15 or so Devastator torpedo planes, then looking at my 14 wildcats and thinking "I can't defend this ship against another just like it, I need more fighters"

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Hello Pinsog,

You are making a few assumptions here that are probably not based on fact. Admiral Nagumo would hardly have been, in my opinion and that of others, the best choice of a commander for this attack, but he was next in line due to seniority. He had a mission to execute. He accomplished that mission with minimal losses. After that, everything else was a risk and Nagumo was a cautious man. If things had gone REALLY wrong, he probably would have been expected to commit seppuku though perhaps not because there were plenty of screw-ups later in the war without suicides.

As for the forces, the Japanese only had what they brung. Americans had SOME number of carriers, and of course USS Oahu and the other Hawaiian islands. A lot of aircraft were destroyed, but there were still aircraft and something like a PBY or B-17 has a LOT more reconnaissance range than anything carried on board a carrier. Land based attackers are also going to be more numerous and bigger than the little single engine bombers on board a carrier.

As for the USS Enterprise carrying a balance of 14 x F4F, 36 x SBD, 15 x TBD, you need to understand what the purpose of a fleet carrier actually is: Force Projection. The striking power is in the Bombers and Torpedo planes. The Fighters are to ensure that the attack force makes it to the target. The F4F at the time had no real strike capability, so trading a TBD or SBD for more F4F just weakens your attack force. The fleet defense was for the escort vessels which included some dedicated anti-aircraft cruisers. It doesn't make much sense to turn your carrier into a little short range beehive.
Later in the war, when the F6F and F4U became available, it made more sense to swap a bomber for a fighter because those aircraft could carry a reasonable bomb load by themselves.

- Ivan.

GrauGeist said:

At 1:20 a.m. on 7 December, Admiral Nagumo received a message sent to him by Takeo Yoshikawa, an IJN officer working undercover at the Japanese Consulate in Honolulu.

The message read:
"Vessels moored in harbor: 9 battleships; 3 class B cruisers; 3 seaplane tenders, 17 destroyers. Entering harbor are 4 class B cruisers; 3 destroyers. All aircraft carriers and heavy cruisers have departed harbor….No indication of any changes in U.S. Fleet or anything unusual."

So Nagumo knew the carriers weren't there - which is why he made the decision to cancel the third strike, because he knew the carriers were out there somewhere. And rightly so, the Enterprise, which was approaching Oahu, was perhaps the closest and could have been easily moved into striking range.had the USN known the location of the Japanese fleet.

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Resp:
Nagumo knew the carriers weren't there when he received the msg on 7 December. But this info was of the early hours of 7 December. His sailing time from their port to Pearl Harbor had to anticipate the likelihood that the US carriers Would play a part in the battle he planned. The idea that he wasn't interested in taking out a carrier or two seems unlikely.

Ivan1GFP said:

Hello Pinsog,

You are making a few assumptions here that are probably not based on fact. Admiral Nagumo would hardly have been, in my opinion and that of others, the best choice of a commander for this attack, but he was next in line due to seniority. He had a mission to execute. He accomplished that mission with minimal losses. After that, everything else was a risk and Nagumo was a cautious man. If things had gone REALLY wrong, he probably would have been expected to commit seppuku though perhaps not because there were plenty of screw-ups later in the war without suicides.

As for the forces, the Japanese only had what they brung. Americans had SOME number of carriers, and of course USS Oahu and the other Hawaiian islands. A lot of aircraft were destroyed, but there were still aircraft and something like a PBY or B-17 has a LOT more reconnaissance range than anything carried on board a carrier. Land based attackers are also going to be more numerous and bigger than the little single engine bombers on board a carrier.

As for the USS Enterprise carrying a balance of 14 x F4F, 36 x SBD, 15 x TBD, you need to understand what the purpose of a fleet carrier actually is: Force Projection. The striking power is in the Bombers and Torpedo planes. The Fighters are to ensure that the attack force makes it to the target. The F4F at the time had no real strike capability, so trading a TBD or SBD for more F4F just weakens your attack force. The fleet defense was for the escort vessels which included some dedicated anti-aircraft cruisers. It doesn't make much sense to turn your carrier into a little short range beehive.
Later in the war, when the F6F and F4U became available, it made more sense to swap a bomber for a fighter because those aircraft could carry a reasonable bomb load by themselves.

- Ivan.

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Resp:
Credit must be given to the Japanese for what they accomplished at Pearl Harbor. As regard for the USN, they wisely kept their carriers out of what was going on at Pearl Harbor. Japan's intelligence made the difference that fateful day. If the Enterprise knew nothing of the attack or the force performing it, it surly didn't want to sacrifice itself w/o no guaranteed gain. History shows that their time would come. Midway is but one example.

Ivan1GFP said:

Hello Pinsog,

You are making a few assumptions here that are probably not based on fact. Admiral Nagumo would hardly have been, in my opinion and that of others, the best choice of a commander for this attack, but he was next in line due to seniority. He had a mission to execute. He accomplished that mission with minimal losses. After that, everything else was a risk and Nagumo was a cautious man. If things had gone REALLY wrong, he probably would have been expected to commit seppuku though perhaps not because there were plenty of screw-ups later in the war without suicides.

As for the forces, the Japanese only had what they brung. Americans had SOME number of carriers, and of course USS Oahu and the other Hawaiian islands. A lot of aircraft were destroyed, but there were still aircraft and something like a PBY or B-17 has a LOT more reconnaissance range than anything carried on board a carrier. Land based attackers are also going to be more numerous and bigger than the little single engine bombers on board a carrier.

As for the USS Enterprise carrying a balance of 14 x F4F, 36 x SBD, 15 x TBD, you need to understand what the purpose of a fleet carrier actually is: Force Projection. The striking power is in the Bombers and Torpedo planes. The Fighters are to ensure that the attack force makes it to the target. The F4F at the time had no real strike capability, so trading a TBD or SBD for more F4F just weakens your attack force. The fleet defense was for the escort vessels which included some dedicated anti-aircraft cruisers. It doesn't make much sense to turn your carrier into a little short range beehive.
Later in the war, when the F6F and F4U became available, it made more sense to swap a bomber for a fighter because those aircraft could carry a reasonable bomb load by themselves.

- Ivan.

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Nagumo should have had a reasonable idea that the island forces had been GREATLY reduced. Even the 2nd wave had only token resistance from fighters. He also, after the 2nd wave returned, had in excess of 100 Zero fighters as well as over 100 Val's that could have, if needed, contribute to the defense of the fleet.

I understand force projection is the job of a carrier, but 14 Wildcats isnt enough to defend 1 carrier from 1 carrier of equal strength. What about escorting your attack planes? How many of your 14 Wildcats do you send out as escort? Do you escort the torpedo planes or the dive bombers? 14 is barely enough to escort 1 of them. Then you have 0 left for defense of the carrier. 1 nice thing about USS Oahu is that it can't be sunk. You can send out everything you have and that island will still be there when you return. 2 torpedoes and your carrier is probably dead in the water. 3 or more and it's sunk. After the 2nd wave returned the Japanese had over 130 Kate's still available.

pinsog said:

Nagumo should have had a reasonable idea that the island forces had been GREATLY reduced. Even the 2nd wave had only token resistance from fighters. He also, after the 2nd wave returned, had in excess of 100 Zero fighters as well as over 100 Val's that could have, if needed, contribute to the defense of the fleet.

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Hello Pinsog,
There is no doubt that the two waves of attackers made a mess of things at Pearl Harbor.
Now consider why the attack was planned for a Sunday.
A lot of the personnel were probably not on duty and not even on base. How much of that lack of resistance to the raids was due to a lack of preparedness and ALSO a lack of personnel? From the first bomb to the completion of the attack was only about two hours which isn't enough time to recall anyone, especially on a Sunday morning.

As for what Nagumo should be expecting: He was actually told by Japanese intelligence that there were FOUR carriers based at Pearl Harbor and he hadn't found any of them thus far. Those carriers with land based support would easily overwhelm his fleet.

pinsog said:

I understand force projection is the job of a carrier, but 14 Wildcats isnt enough to defend 1 carrier from 1 carrier of equal strength. What about escorting your attack planes? How many of your 14 Wildcats do you send out as escort? Do you escort the torpedo planes or the dive bombers? 14 is barely enough to escort 1 of them. Then you have 0 left for defense of the carrier. 1 nice thing about USS Oahu is that it can't be sunk. You can send out everything you have and that island will still be there when you return. 2 torpedoes and your carrier is probably dead in the water. 3 or more and it's sunk. After the 2nd wave returned the Japanese had over 130 Kate's still available.

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There is a reason why the carrier is surrounded by escort ships. Carriers don't really defend themselves. As for the size of the air group, that is how things were at the time with a few extra aircraft as spares. Space was at a premium for carriers in all navies. Other than Lexington and Saratoga (and Akagi and Kaga), all the other ships were built with serious tonnage limitations.

Most ships of the time were not really capable of defending against their own primary weapons systems. Battlecruisers tend to be too lightly armoured as are most treaty cruisers. Many if not most Battleships were as well.

As for where to put escorting Wildcats, I would put them up near the Dauntless bombers where they could enter the battle with a bit more altitude than if they were closer to the Devastators.

- Ivan.

Ivan1GFP said:

Hello Pinsog,
There is no doubt that the two waves of attackers made a mess of things at Pearl Harbor.
Now consider why the attack was planned for a Sunday.
A lot of the personnel were probably not on duty and not even on base. How much of that lack of resistance to the raids was due to a lack of preparedness and ALSO a lack of personnel? From the first bomb to the completion of the attack was only about two hours which isn't enough time to recall anyone, especially on a Sunday morning.

As for what Nagumo should be expecting: He was actually told by Japanese intelligence that there were FOUR carriers based at Pearl Harbor and he hadn't found any of them thus far. Those carriers with land based support would easily overwhelm his fleet.



There is a reason why the carrier is surrounded by escort ships. Carriers don't really defend themselves. As for the size of the air group, that is how things were at the time with a few extra aircraft as spares. Space was at a premium for carriers in all navies. Other than Lexington and Saratoga (and Akagi and Kaga), all the other ships were built with serious tonnage limitations.

Most ships of the time were not really capable of defending against their own primary weapons systems. Battlecruisers tend to be too lightly armoured as are most treaty cruisers. Many if not most Battleships were as well.

As for where to put escorting Wildcats, I would put them up near the Dauntless bombers where they could enter the battle with a bit more altitude than if they were closer to the Devastators.

- Ivan.

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Very good point about Nagumo thinking there wasn't more fighter resistance due to pilots not there yet but the planes were undamaged. Lots of things would be going through his mind on how this could go wrong. And also that there were 4 carriers missing, that would be worrisome as well.

But he still had 6 carriers and had only lost 29 planes, I personally believe if he found the Enterprise he would have and could have easily destroyed her using only 2 carriers at most, while holding the other 4 in reserve. With only 14 defending Wildcats a full strike by 2 carriers should have easily disposed of the Enterprise.

Your right that Enterprise has escorts to help defend her, but the only real way to defend against large air attacks is with fighters. At this stage in the war AAA alone could not have stopped a large scale attack from a well trained and determined enemy

Hello Pinsog,

I believe you are still working with knowledge we have NOW that the players did not have at the time.

pinsog said:

Very good point about Nagumo thinking there wasn't more fighter resistance due to pilots not there yet but the planes were undamaged. Lots of things would be going through his mind on how this could go wrong. And also that there were 4 carriers missing, that would be worrisome as well.

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I never actually said that was what Admiral Nagumo was thinking: that there wasn't fighter resistance because of lack of pilots.
That was just a possible explanation for Our benefit. Nagumo has no way of knowing at the time.

Just think of what he actually DOES know though:
He has conducted two quick raids against a major naval base and army installation on Oahu. There may be more assets on the other islands. In less than one hour from the start of the first raid to the start of the second raid, the Anti Aircraft grew significantly stronger.
He does NOT have the capability to fight a prolonged battle against US forces in Hawaii.
The longer he waits, the greater the chance of being discovered becomes and there are still four carriers un accounted for.
His MISSION is accomplished.
At this point, according to the Japanese script, the war would be over soon just like it was with China and Russia.

pinsog said:

But he still had 6 carriers and had only lost 29 planes, I personally believe if he found the Enterprise he would have and could have easily destroyed her using only 2 carriers at most, while holding the other 4 in reserve. With only 14 defending Wildcats a full strike by 2 carriers should have easily disposed of the Enterprise.

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You are using knowledge that Nagumo didn't have.
Did he KNOW there was A carrier in reasonably close proximity? Was the nearest enemy ship / carrier 50 miles away or 500 miles away? In which direction? YOU know there is something to look for. Did he know?
Besides the great concern about Enterprise, what about Lexington and Saratoga that are also supposed to be at Pearl Harbor?
Should he look for them as well?

Assuming that the Japanese knew that there was only USS Enterprise present, Do they actually know the composition of the air group that is aboard? Please note the reason why the three carriers were not at Pearl Harbor to begin with: They were transferring aircraft to and from various Pacific bases

Let's say that Nagumo gets lucky or gets some divine inspiration and recon finds Enterprise.
The Japanese launch a two carrier strike against Enterprise.
NOW imagine their surprise if they should arrive over the target and find there are actually FOUR carriers along with their escorts.
Do they attack? Does this become an early Battle of Midway?

The mission as assigned was accomplished. If a substantial portion of the attack force was lost or damaged, that would reduce the superiority of forces that was just created and make negotiations difficult.

pinsog said:

Your right that Enterprise has escorts to help defend her, but the only real way to defend against large air attacks is with fighters. At this stage in the war AAA alone could not have stopped a large scale attack from a well trained and determined enemy

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Sometimes one needs to choose between conflicting demands. A carrier's greatest value is its long range offensive capability. One doesn't waste that ability to provide short range air cover. The trade-off is that up close, they were fairly soft targets.
What also may not be obvious is that the SBD could (like the D3A) also be used as a fighter if needed.

- Ivan.

Its difficult to know what people were thinking or what they might have done under different circumstances but if im Admiral Nagumo I'm gonna be thinkin" ive accomplished my mission in spades with minimal loss. There are 4 American carriers iut there somewhere. Do I really want to risk turning this great success into a great defeat". and I'm gonna high tail it outa there even if I did locate the Enterprise somehow.

To clear up a miscommunication, I didn't say or mean to say Nagumo should LOOK for Enterprise, I said he would/should destroy her if they spotted her. What I did say or mean to say is that Enterprise should not look for the Japanese fleet because common sense should tell them they are outnumbered. Instead, searches and strikes should come from Hawaii.

I agree the first 2 strikes with minimal loss was good as time for Nagumo to go, also his ships were low on fuel oil so he really couldn't hang around. (More later I'm tied up now)

re Ivan1GFP's post#176 "...Do they actually know the composition of the air group that is aboard?..."

The IJN was aware of the standard US carrier air group composition of 1x Fighters, 2x Dive Bomber/Scout Bomber, and 1x Torpedo squadron, plus a few extra.

ThomasP said:

re Ivan1GFP's post#176 "...Do they actually know the composition of the air group that is aboard?..."

The IJN was aware of the standard US carrier air group composition of 1x Fighters, 2x Dive Bomber/Scout Bomber, and 1x Torpedo squadron, plus a few extra.

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Hello ThomasP,

Thanks for the information. Do you know how many spares were usually carried.
I was referring more to the reason that the three US carriers were in transit to and from various places.
They were all transferring aircraft from one base to another and probably didn't have just their standard complements on board.

- Ivan.