Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
That misrepresented the views of the bomber advocates. They believed that strategic bombing would be decisive and argued again and again that tactical bombing was an ineffective diversion of resources. Their public writings and archival material have made this crystal clear.
From a previous post of mineThis is an interesting point.
Anyone got a month by month (or even week by week) comparison of USAAF claims in North Africa and Western Europe?
I wonder at what point the rate of ETO claims takes over that of MTO claims.
Allocation of fighters is a strategic decision. They were put in the Mediterranean to support the strategic aim of invading Sicily and then Italy. In 1943 the USAAF strategic bombing offense was an experiment that had yet to prove anything. You put your resources where they will do the most good. Losing 60 B-17s in a single mission is a catastrophe for the air force but in the overall scheme of things is not of much consequence. Losing two loaded troopships off the coast of Sicily because of lack of air cover would have much greater consequences.This may be true, but it is also irrelevant.
To be accurate, it's cause-and-effect error. Are you shooting down more Axis aircraft in the MTO because there are more of them there, or simply because almost all of your fighter forces are there? You can construct some simple distributions of squadrons between the theaters that make it obvious that you can allocate forces to put the majority of the shoot-downs that you achieve into one theater or the other.
8th AF HQ and other strategic bombing advocates objected to the diversion of medium bombers from strategic bombing, even though they couldn't reach deep targets, because they could help "swamp" German defenses in the coastal belt. One of the main arguments in late-42 through mid-43 for why the strategic bombing offensive would succeed was they German "barrier" defense. They argued the building up the bomber force would allowing penetrations at multiple points simultaneously, overwhelming the German command and control systems.I'd argue that that "The bomber advocates believed strategic bombing would be decisive and argued again and again that using strategic bombers in tactical bombing roles was an ineffective diversion of resources."
The USAAF, for instance, procured large numbers of light/attack bombers (A-20, A-26) and medium bombers (B-26, B-25). The 'bomber barons' were fine with deploying these aircraft in tactical and what I'd label 'semi strategic' roles (against targets like transportation hubs, lines of communication, airfields and naval concentrations).
That is not correct. The following figures use bombers credited with attacking, use effective sorties the percentages drop, use despatched and they drop again, add write offs and they climb. The first 7 columns are the monthly figures, the final 3 the cumulative figures since the start of the campaign. The bombing raids were in trouble in early 1943.The first raids on European territory - France and the Low Countries - were an unpleasant experience for new American bomber crews but in relative terms, casualties were not excessive. When they moved to bombing German soil - Wilhelmshafen - they again, did not suffer unduly.
| Be | Fr | Ge | NL | No | Po | Total | Fr | Ge | All Targets |
0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | ||||
2.70 | 0.00 | 2.41 | 1.41 | 1.18 | |||||
0.00 | 5.15 | 5.07 | 3.24 | 2.92 | |||||
3.27 | 3.27 | 3.25 | 3.09 | ||||||
7.60 | 7.60 | 4.28 | 4.11 | ||||||
8.06 | 1.82 | 6.64 | 5.05 | 1.82 | 4.72 | ||||
6.85 | 11.65 | 8.84 | 5.30 | 8.23 | 5.55 | ||||
2.27 | 5.08 | 1.64 | 3.11 | 4.54 | 6.48 | 4.74 | |||
4.88 | 4.91 | 15.09 | 7.98 | 4.58 | 8.46 | 5.26 | |||
2.19 | 5.76 | 5.90 | 5.42 | 4.88 | 7.08 | 5.32 | |||
10.26 | 3.90 | 9.07 | 7.58 | 4.75 | 7.93 | 5.87 | |||
3.70 | 10.10 | 0.00 | 0.48 | 6.70 | 4.57 | 8.65 | 6.09 | ||
1.90 | 15.23 | 2.72 | 6.54 | 3.95 | 9.81 | 6.18 | |||
0.00 | 3.32 | 7.62 | 0.00 | 3.98 | 3.77 | 9.55 | 5.72 | ||
11.32 | 9.48 | 0.00 | 4.72 | 8.99 | 3.84 | 9.53 | 6.26 | ||
0.00 | 10.00 | 3.85 | 0.00 | 2.84 | 3.73 | 3.89 | 7.93 | 5.81 | |
0.00 | 2.99 | 3.58 | 3.43 | 3.73 | 6.51 | 5.22 |
The trend is quite clear and the overall losses were kept down by raiding targets with weaker defences, targets that the Germans were not as worried about. The alternative was to stay within escort range and build expertise that way, something going on in the Mediterranean. Part of squaring the circle was the idea of overwhelming German air defences, a figure of 300 bombers was set in 1942 and stayed at that number through 1943 as the defences increased strength.But we know that as time wore on, attrition went up. But when does a few raids with relatively high losses become a trend? When does that trend become a repudiation of strategy? What's the alternative?
What was the Spaatz contribution? Casablanca resulted in Bomber Command being told bomb U-boats, Aircraft Industry, Transportation, Oil Plants in that order, in February came help the USSR, bomb Berlin, in April came bombing U-boat bases was not working, revert to harassment only. POINTBLANK had a number of contributors including the COSSAC Staff, in June 1943 came the idea because the bombers were being so successful more German fighters were going west, so German fighter strength became the main priority because they could stop the bombers, followed by U-boats, Aircraft Industry, Ball Bearings, Oil (Assuming Ploesti raids worked)It seems to me that time - not drop tanks - was the problem. The Casablanca conference put the Western Allies on a path to D-Day. It was a matter of planning it and Eaker and Spaatz came up with Operation POINTBLANK. The directive most people are already aware of was the destruction of Germany's industrial base for aviation. The plan was to attack at all levels from the factory to the fighter pilot. Anything to rid the skies of the Luftwaffe before D-Day. Invasion couldn't take place in 1943 and 1945 was unreasonable.
Necessity is a weak argument, Germany had a synthetic rubber bottleneck, the Huls raid was one of the most successful raids. P-47 crossed the German border on 26 July 1943, the early 1943 ideas of the fighters going one way and the bombers another was changing. The Germans were showing a strong willingness to defend Ruhr targets.The point is that Schweinfurt and Regensburg had to be attacked. B-17s were the only means the USAAF had at its disposal to do it. The cost would be high and everyone knew it.
By attacking when they did the USAAF alerted the Germans to the problems while being unable to do the necessary follow up raids, stocks plus the ability to order bearings in short supply from Sweden covered the production losses. Sweden as a neutral limited the Germans to pre war values of bearings but allowed adjustments on type.But for some bad English weather, the Schweinfurt mission might have been as successful as the Regensburg one (that not many people talk about). But while about 120 airmen died on the first Schweinfurt mission and 60 aircraft were lost from both, has anyone considered the cost of not doing it? The critics, with their ritual hand-wringing, never seem to provide a realistic alternative either.
Drop tanks were available and more than noise, 17 August 1943 there were 432 serviceable B-17 and 195 P-47, 8 October it was 410 B-17, 112 B-24, 390 P-47.Above all, the matter of P-47s with drop tanks is little more than noise, in terms of the overall planning. There was no immediately available alternative either.
That was far too late and the P-51 was already on the way, the USAAF effort for longer fighter range had restarted in early 1942. The B-17 being an earlier design and having its production pushed arrived in numbers before the P-38 and well before the P-47. Decisions made about force mix made in 1941/42 had effects into 1944.Anyone pointing the finger at Arnold also misses the point. Arnold was no fool and in August, following the Schweinfurt-Regensburg missions, wrote his famous letter to Gen. Barney Giles, seeking a long range escort fighter within six months and it didn't matter if one had to be developed from scratch.
| Target Type/Country | Be | Fr | Ge | NL | No | Po | Total |
| A/F | 108.7 | 4897.8 | 157 | 418.3 | 5581.8 | ||
| A/F (Dummy) | 39 | 39 | |||||
| A/I | 637.1 | 51.5 | 688.6 | ||||
| A/Iasy FW 190 | 496.8 | 496.8 | |||||
| A/Iasy He 111 | 145 | 145 | |||||
| A/Iasy Me 109 | 298.8 | 298.8 | |||||
| A/Icomp | 232 | 482.3 | 714.3 | ||||
| A/Icomp Fighter | 81 | 81 | |||||
| A/Icomp FW 190 | 536.5 | 536.5 | |||||
| A/Ieng | 441 | 441 | |||||
| A/Ieng & Bear | 229 | 229 | |||||
| A/Irepair | 555.8 | 555.8 | |||||
| AFV | 161.5 | 161.5 | |||||
| Bearings | 908 | 908 | |||||
| Diversion | 0 | 0 | |||||
| Hydro | 414.3 | 414.3 | |||||
| I/A | 185.8 | 2866.6 | 86.3 | 3138.7 | |||
| Leaflets | 0 | 0 | |||||
| Loco/Wks | 286.1 | 286.1 | |||||
| M/T | 184.5 | 118.8 | 303.3 | ||||
| M/T & Arm | 251 | 251 | |||||
| M/Y | 837.9 | 631.3 | 1469.2 | ||||
| Naval Storage | 132.5 | 132.5 | |||||
| NB/Large Site Cons | 482 | 482 | |||||
| P/A | 677.3 | 584.6 | 1261.9 | ||||
| P/A Shipping | 308 | 308 | |||||
| Port Militaire | 534.5 | 534.5 | |||||
| Q-Boat | 62 | 62 | |||||
| RR | 3 | 3 | |||||
| RR/Sidings | 62 | 62 | |||||
| Shipping | 3 | 91.6 | 36.9 | 131.5 | |||
| Shipyard | 24 | 199.5 | 223.5 | ||||
| Steel | 267 | 267 | |||||
| Steel & Eng | 192.7 | 192.7 | |||||
| SynRub | 418 | 418 | |||||
| T/O | 62.8 | 1421.5 | 8 | 1492.3 | |||
| Tires | 213.8 | 213.8 | |||||
| UB/entrance | 301 | 301 | |||||
| UB/Facilities | 81 | 81 | |||||
| UB/Pens | 2111.3 | 2111.3 | |||||
| UB/Yards | 3453.2 | 3453.2 | |||||
| YB-40 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |||
| Total | 1010.5 | 12909.6 | 12908 | 839.5 | 495.3 | 308 | 28470.9 |
Thank you for those very enlightening figures. I see where there may have been cause for concern but if anything, it also emphasises what I said earlier: when does a spike, like February, April, June or July, become a trend or even a repudiation? I'm not saying you're wrong: I'm simply pointing out that it took a while for those spikes to become a consistent trend. Now, a theatre commander would be right to be concerned any time there are higher than expected losses but I'm sure there are some who would conclude that things were going south in February but commanders had to remain calm. What do you do? Trapped between a rock and a hard place.That is not correct. The following figures use bombers credited with attacking, use effective sorties the percentages drop, use despatched and they drop again, add write offs and they climb. The first 7 columns are the monthly figures, the final 3 the cumulative figures since the start of the campaign. The bombing raids were in trouble in early 1943.
I would suggest that, on the strength of your figures, the trend was not clear until the middle of the year. That's my point: at what point does it become a trend and then a repudiation? I know this is vague. I'm sorry. I just think that hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm trying to think outside the box. Unless you're in the thick of it in mid-1943... And yes, perhaps with hindsight, continuing as things were was the wrong decision but what was the alternative? That's my other point.The trend is quite clear and the overall losses were kept down by raiding targets with weaker defences, targets that the Germans were not as worried about. The alternative was to stay within escort range and build expertise that way, something going on in the Mediterranean. Part of squaring the circle was the idea of overwhelming German air defences, a figure of 300 bombers was set in 1942 and stayed at that number through 1943 as the defences increased strength.
Yep, that's pretty much as I understood it. I'm sorry, I don't know what that last sentence means.POINTBLANK had a number of contributors including the COSSAC Staff, in June 1943 came the idea because the bombers were being so successful more German fighters were going west, so German fighter strength became the main priority because they could stop the bombers, followed by U-boats, Aircraft Industry, Ball Bearings, Oil (Assuming Ploesti raids worked)
By end 1942 the USAAF in the Mediterranean had decided scoring heavy bombers was a good idea to necessity for most missions.
If necessity is a weak argument then what was the point of even being there? I'm sorry, I'm not seeing it. I'm not trying to sound callous either but this is the reality of command. I'd have said necessity was the only argument. Alternatives seemed to be in relatively short supply. I doubt any of the senior commanders relished the idea of sending so many people on a one way trip. Yet that has become a central narrative in this.Necessity is a weak argument, Germany had a synthetic rubber bottleneck, the Huls raid was one of the most successful raids. P-47 crossed the German border on 26 July 1943, the early 1943 ideas of the fighters going one way and the bombers another was changing. The Germans were showing a strong willingness to defend Ruhr targets.
The follow up raid was only necessary because the first raid did not achieve the hoped-for results. There are many factors in this, weather being one of them. And yes, indecision by senior command (Fred Anderson?) was another. So we know that coordination went to pot and the second wave suffered badly; worse than expected. So the idea of follow up missions alerting the Germans is a bit of a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument.By attacking when they did the USAAF alerted the Germans to the problems while being unable to do the necessary follow up raids, stocks plus the ability to order bearings in short supply from Sweden covered the production losses. Sweden as a neutral limited the Germans to pre war values of bearings but allowed adjustments on type.
This is the bit I don't buy. First of all, it assumes that drop tanks would have solved the problem and I'm not seeing it. At the end of 1943, P-47 fighter squadrons started their own field modifications to plumb the wing pylons to carry drop tanks, prior to which there was only the centreline pylon. That resulted in the D-9 model and later, the D-11, when it became a line mod. But that wasn't the whole problem. The P-47 simply didn't carry enough internal fuel (256 gallons) and that had been a problem since before the war.Drop tanks were available and more than noise, 17 August 1943 there were 432 serviceable B-17 and 195 P-47, 8 October it was 410 B-17, 112 B-24, 390 P-47.
And I would agree. The first USAAF P-51s were ordered, from memory, in October, 1942. But even with the best will in the world, they were still going to be some way off, even in mid-1943. Like I said: time was more of an issue than drop tanks.That was far too late and the P-51 was already on the way, the USAAF effort for longer fighter range had restarted in early 1942. The B-17 being an earlier design and having its production pushed arrived in numbers before the P-38 and well before the P-47. Decisions made about force mix made in 1941/42 had effects into 1944.
Exactly. But that's not the same as being stuck in the bomber mindset. It's simply the reality that these places needed to be hit if the operational objectives were going to be met. Accusations have been levelled at COA too, by writers like Brian Vlaun, whose criticisms come off as less than objective. I think it's just not as simple as most people think it was.The 8th Air Force loss rates rapidly hit dangerous levels, the experience from the Mediterranean said escorts were needed, the 8th Air Force persisted into mid 1943 with separate bomber and fighter air wars and decided it should strike targets according to how vital they appeared to be, not what was within fighter range.
You mean 22 October? Operation Corona?In fact Bomber Command with things like the Kassel raid fire storm were more concentrated on the aircraft target list and maybe doing more damage.
In general terms when the number of sorties hits statistical significance, 1 out of 10 versus 100 out of 1,000. In the 8th Air Force case it is understanding not all targets were equal and noticing the reports of the big gap in losses between early escorted and unescorted raids to France resulting in adjustments to targets that helped keep the overall monthly loss figure down, while giving inexperienced units a chance to learn. In early 1943 the 8th was aware the Mediterranean was escorting its heavy bombers or taking unacceptable losses.I see where there may have been cause for concern but if anything, it also emphasises what I said earlier: when does a spike, like February, April, June or July, become a trend or even a repudiation?
If you isolate raids to Germany you have a point, given the small number, not when you add the French raids, in particular when you look at the chosen targets, then combine them with the German raids and cross check against the number of escorts. In 1943 the RAF was quite happy the USAAF was providing a viable day bomber force, that was where the Luftwaffe fighters could be found.I'm simply pointing out that it took a while for those spikes to become a consistent trend.
The 8th Air Force did not really change strategy from that formulated in 1942, when it came to fighters it certainly asked about drop tanks, the British advised in February 1943 no rush orders could be done, then the 8th asked for many in June 1943, but in mid July rated the tanks fourth priority, the British received approval for the fittings designs in October.Now, a theatre commander would be right to be concerned any time there are higher than expected losses but I'm sure there are some who would conclude that things were going south in February but commanders had to remain calm. What do you do? Trapped between a rock and a hard place.
nor do I, try auto correct turning a typo for escorting into scoring and I missed it, giving By end 1942 the USAAF in the Mediterranean had decided escorting heavy bombers was a good idea to necessity for most missions.Yep, that's pretty much as I understood it. I'm sorry, I don't know what that last sentence means.
In 1943 building up the knowledge base and supply system to mount consistent sortie totals. Learning how to put together large raids, overcoming weather problems, hitting targets to see actual results and so on. All of that could be done within or close to within escort range. Instead the loss information and increasing defences were set to one side on the assumption air raids by around 300 heavy bombers would cripple the German war machine enough to justify the bomber losses. One raid day on Germany in January 1943, two in February, 3 in March, 1 in April with over 100 bombers attacking, 4 in May, 4 in June with over 200 bombers attacking on the 11th, 5 raid days 25 to 30 July 1943, 837 bombers attacking, 86 missing.If necessity is a weak argument then what was the point of even being there? I'm sorry, I'm not seeing it.
To make this claim requires many examples of economic targets being effectively destroyed by a single raid, that is just a few things going better for the USAAF and Schweinfurt is abandoned by the Germans for the war, with little salvaged, otherwise the USAAF has to keep going back to inflict more damage, including on the repairs. I know of 1 or 2 oil target raids that caused enough damage to cause the Germans to abandon repairs. Please list all the others.The follow up raid was only necessary because the first raid did not achieve the hoped-for results. There are many factors in this, weather being one of them. And yes, indecision by senior command (Fred Anderson?) was another. So we know that coordination went to pot and the second wave suffered badly; worse than expected. So the idea of follow up missions alerting the Germans is a bit of a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument.
8th Air Force losses to enemy aircraft by target,This is the bit I don't buy. First of all, it assumes that drop tanks would have solved the problem and I'm not seeing it.
The big problem was in order to fit a 200 gallon ferry tank Republic came up with a non USAAF standard set of fittings. That took until Q3/43 to fix.At the end of 1943, P-47 fighter squadrons started their own field modifications to plumb the wing pylons to carry drop tanks, prior to which there was only the centreline pylon. That resulted in the D-9 model and later, the D-11, when it became a line mod. But that wasn't the whole problem.
No pre war P-47. The internal fuel in 1943 was 305 gallons.The P-47 simply didn't carry enough internal fuel (256 gallons) and that had been a problem since before the war.
Meantime as of 31 December 1943 the 8th could draw on 2 P-38 and 1 P-51 groups to provide deeper cover, and in any case were limiting raids to targets escorts could reach.When it came to missions in early 1944, the D-9 and D-11 models could not quite reach Magdeburg.
Your understanding of the drop tank situation is incorrect. By the way in December 1943 British 108 gallon tank production was slightly under 12,000.Now, I'm prepared to accept that two 108 US gallon tanks are a whole different drag penalty from one 205 gallon drop tank but the problem remains the same: you consume half the fuel in the tank getting the other half there. I haven't seen anything conclusive that the 205 gallon "Brisbane" tank was a viable solution. Did they even know about something that was happening on the other side of the world?
No, fuel could not be drawn from it at altitude, so it was half filled, used, then jettisoned, that got the P-47 almost to operational height.I have even seen suggestions that the 200 gallon ferry tank was an option but as far as I know, it couldn't have been jettisoned in an emergency.
The big problem, deliberately going beyond escort range in the belief the results would be worth it or the losses remain sustainable, despite the evidenceThis is why I say drop tanks are mostly noise. They are not a complete answer because there are other parts of the problem they simply don't address.
The trouble I have with this statement is it originally refers to Arnold being smart by writing a letter about long range escorts in August 1943, which, if it was his first intervention, would prove the exact opposite.And I would agree. The first USAAF P-51s were ordered, from memory, in October, 1942. But even with the best will in the world, they were still going to be some way off, even in mid-1943. Like I said: time was more of an issue than drop tanks.
What are the operational objectives being considered? How many were met?It's simply the reality that these places needed to be hit if the operational objectives were going to be met.
Few things are. The 8th Air Force stuck to pre war ideas that were firmed up in 1942, then ignored lots of information including from its own operations to continue trying the doctrine until October 1943. To switch to the USAAF statistical digest, which has different figures to the above, 8th Air Force lost 599 heavy bombers to enemy fighters to end October 1943, say escorts halve the loss rate, what was gained for the extra losses? What was lost by giving the Germans advanced warning of what bombing strategy was to come and what damage it could do?I think it's just not as simple as most people think it was.
Yes.You mean 22 October?
I've been trying to forget it since I first saw a photo of oneDon't forget the XB-41
This is a very serious allegation. It may or may not be right. The problem is that in a lot of circles, it seems to have become boilerplate. The trouble is that I cannot find it in myself to believe in that level of malfeasance or incompetence. Even Eaker was asking for P-38s in 1942. Arnold had to make a choice and he chose to keep them in the Pacific. We agree that the Pacific was a smaller campaign, in the sense that it involved much smaller units. But it was spread out over a much larger area and the P-38 was theThe 8th chose to ignore what everyone was telling them, deciding economic importance rated higher than keeping losses to a level that allowed repeated raids to the economically important targets.
I'm going to say from the start that I have no doubt your figures are correct. You seem to be the resident expert on this. You also make a good point about not treating the targets as equal. I'm trying not to but even then, there would have been some variation in response. But there's a reason I didn't address this earlier: I'm questioning how the figures were interpreted, where and by whom. Did the right arm know what the left arm was doing? This, along with what I said earlier about Eaker, is one reason why I'm reluctant to accept the "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" bomber mafia argument. Now, I'm not accusing you of anything: I'm posing a question and it may be unanswerable. Most of my sources are not really good enough to come to any definitive conclusion.Total 289, add the targets with 6 or more losses and it becomes 427 losses out of 511 total, few of these raids had escorts to target, assume escorts halved the losses to enemy fighters, saving around 200 to 250 heavy bombers, that decreases the loss rate by about 1%, or from over the 5% unsustainable to over 4%, high.
My understanding, FWIW, was that 305 gallons came with the D series. For 1943, the vast majority were C models.No pre war P-47. The internal fuel in 1943 was 305 gallons.
Yes. The second group of P-38s arrived on the last day of the year so the picture isn't quite as clear as it seems at first glance. By that time, the weather would have been unsuitable.Meantime as of 31 December 1943 the 8th could draw on 2 P-38 and 1 P-51 groups to provide deeper cover, and in any case were limiting raids to targets escorts could reach.
What's wrong with it? As i've said, it's largely noise, in my opinion, anyway.Your understanding of the drop tank situation is incorrect.
I assume this is theoretical, rather than operational.No, fuel could not be drawn from it at altitude, so it was half filled, used, then jettisoned, that got the P-47 almost to operational height.
Then it was a matter of priorities.The big problem, deliberately going beyond escort range in the belief the results would be worth it or the losses remain sustainable, despite the evidence
That's more symbolic than anything else. It's simply an acknowledgement that something needed to be done. I've already pointed out that he was approached by Eaker in 1942. We also agree that the USAAF had already placed an order for 1,350 P-51s in October, 1942. So something was going on. There are plenty of people in recent times who have been really, really hard on Arnold and I'm not sure that it's entirely justified. Vlaun, for example, basically accuses him of living in some sort of ivory tower in Washington and making pronunciamentos from there. I think this is quite unfair and unless Vlaun can back it up with some serious evidence that Arnold was behaving as accused, it ignores what his reasons were. Arnold travelled extensively in 1943 and suffered two heart attacks, the first in February and the second in May. That's the price of high command.The trouble I have with this statement is it originally refers to Arnold being smart by writing a letter about long range escorts in August 1943, which, if it was his first intervention, would prove the exact opposite.
As I said: to attack the Luftwaffe at all levels, from the factory to the fighter pilot.What are the operational objectives being considered? How many were met?
Perhaps the best answer to that is to look at what happened between February and June, 1944. But by then the USAAF could go literally anywhere in Germany and bomb whatever it wanted. That is air superiority. My question again is: what meaningful attacks could be made in 1943 if places like Bremen, Anklam, Schweinfurt and Regensburg had to be scratched from the list because they were too hard?Few things are. The 8th Air Force stuck to pre war ideas that were firmed up in 1942, then ignored lots of information including from its own operations to continue trying the doctrine until October 1943. To switch to the USAAF statistical digest, which has different figures to the above, 8th Air Force lost 599 heavy bombers to enemy fighters to end October 1943, say escorts halve the loss rate, what was gained for the extra losses? What was lost by giving the Germans advanced warning of what bombing strategy was to come and what damage it could do?
Okay. This has become very topical in our family recently.Yes.
Eaker and Spaatz asked for P-38s and they got them for 8th AF Operation Bolero. The planned total included the 1st, 14th, 78th and 82nd FG composed of P-38F. The 1st and 14th were operational, the 82nd was near operational when Eisenhower requested all the P-38s for Operation Torch. Over Eaker, Marshall, Adm King objections to not dilute Bolero with Torch, FDR backed Eisenhower.This is a very serious allegation. It may or may not be right. The problem is that in a lot of circles, it seems to have become boilerplate. The trouble is that I cannot find it in myself to believe in that level of malfeasance or incompetence. Even Eaker was asking for P-38s in 1942. Arnold had to make a choice and he chose to keep them in the Pacific. We agree that the Pacific was a smaller campaign, in the sense that it involved much smaller units. But it was spread out over a much larger area and the P-38 was thebestonly long-range fighter the USAAF had.
See above.Both Eaker and Arnold knew that Arnold's choice would have ramifications somewhere. What would those ramifications have been if he had sent those P-38s to England instead? I doubt we will ever really know.
The P-47B through D-22 all had 205gal main and 100gal aux tank. The D-25 introduced the 270gal main with 100gal auxiliary. Was first delivered in mid Feb 1944, in squadron level deployment in June 1943.My understanding, FWIW, was that 305 gallons came with the D series. For 1943, the vast majority were C models.
Arnold ordered the 20th and 55th FG to deploy from CONUS in late June 1943, in spite of Eisenhower's demand for them as well as four B-17 BG, all three B-26 BG for the Invasion of Italy. He still had 3 of the 8th AF B-24 BGs for Tidal Wave and didn't return those shot up groups until late August. They were so badly shot up that they were only used for a 'feint' on October 14 Schweinfurt raid.Yes. The second group of P-38s arrived on the last day of the year so the picture isn't quite as clear as it seems at first glance. By that time, the weather would have been unsuitable.
Arnold is unfairly trashed - ditto Eaker who pleaded with Arnold to send P-38s and P-51B, with support from Lovett, in June 1943. It was VERY clear that the losses beginning in April 1943 were unsupportable over time without severe attrition to the LW.That's more symbolic than anything else. It's simply an acknowledgement that something needed to be done. I've already pointed out that he was approached by Eaker in 1942. We also agree that the USAAF had already placed an order for 1,350 P-51s in October, 1942. So something was going on. There are plenty of people in recent times who have been really, really hard on Arnold and I'm not sure that it's entirely justified. Vlaun, for example, basically accuses him of living in some sort of ivory tower in Washington and making pronunciamentos from there. I think this is quite unfair and unless Vlaun can back it up with some serious evidence that Arnold was behaving as accused, it ignores what his reasons were. Arnold travelled extensively in 1943 and suffered two heart attacks, the first in February and the second in May. That's the price of high command.
See above. His June 30, 1943 letter to Giles sparked the recommendation in July 1943 that the P-51B was the fighter of choice. Giles single-handedly drove the Increase Internal Fuel priority to Republic, NAA and Lockheed. NAA and Lockheed delivered prototype flights in July, Republic in November.I think it's worth remembering why people like Arnold wanted to make the bomber theorem work. Arnold was a friend of Mitchell and as far as I can tell, both were affected enough by the slaughter in the trenches of WWI to not want it repeated, least of all at the cost of American lives. That doesn't tally with the idea of pushing ahead and ignoring the advice to prove a doctrine, irrespective of casualties. Not in my mind, anyway. To formally acknowledge, as he did with his letter to Giles, that the theorem wasn't working must have come at considerable personal and political cost, especially given whom he was answerable to. I just think that, whatever his flaws - and they were considerable, Arnold might have been a better man that a lot of people give him credit for. I just think he was looking and thinking, "How far do we go before this becomes self-defeating?"
IMO Greg is not an idiot, but he is fixated on the "Arnold done Republic Wrong" song. The source is his agreement with Trent Telenko and Pierre Speyer themes about the 'bomber mafia'I also think it's become far too easy and far too readily accepted that people like Vlaun can just lambaste him the way he does without really considering why they thought the way they did. But if you depersonalise someone, it makes it far easier to accuse them of blind adherence. Also, the term "doctrine" has some rather nasty connotations. I haven't read Malcolm Gladwell's book but I sort of get the impression that he starts with an idea and just tries to join the dots. Greg is just a useful idiot, IMHO.
Done - and remember that a.) Arnold could see the fate of the P-75, and b.) he also was the Exec that re-prioritized the "1500 mile range fighter' from number 4 to number 1 when the Emmons Board submitted priorities in 1940.If anyone wishes to continue this element of this topic elsewhere, feel free.
Boilerplate or orthodox tend to form around the available evidence, deciding this is wrong requires evidence to the contrary.This is a very serious allegation. It may or may not be right. The problem is that in a lot of circles, it seems to have become boilerplate. The trouble is that I cannot find it in myself to believe in that level of malfeasance or incompetence.
Given the use of P-47 on fighter sweeps in the first half of 1943, or as escorts to B-26, saying I want P-38 is simply not enough, the RAF were doing escorts.Even Eaker was asking for P-38s in 1942.
The USAAF managed to get 3 P-38 groups to Europe late 1942/early 1943, they were sent to the Mediterranean where they proved useful, but no more were sent there. Then it was August 1943 before another P-38 group arrived in Europe. One of the issues to confront is with hundreds of aircraft coming off the production line why so few combat units? In part for the USAAF in 1943 was training time, as well as training the training system. The aircrew rotation system required a bigger training system as another reason. Maintenance requirements. Add the continual improvements being done, making earlier examples look or feel obsolete, the amount of flying hours an airframe could take before its performance was considered degraded, then there were the casualties.Arnold had to make a choice and he chose to keep them in the Pacific.
What if is always a never really know. The P-38 in the MTO had lots of combat and non combat issues in 1943, the P-38 in the 8th Air Force had lots of non combat issues in 1943/44 and were probably losing one aircraft for each one they shot down. The 8th Air Force chose to convert some P-47 units to P-51 ahead of the P-38 units because of the range issues and the presence of P-38 did seem to reduce bomber losses.What would those ramifications have been if he had sent those P-38s to England instead? I doubt we will ever really know.
Reports were being sent up the chain of command, various people had their opinions on what it meant, Washington generally deferred to the local command and also tended in early/mid 1943 to conclude the self defending bomber was showing promise, echoing the ETO viewI'm questioning how the figures were interpreted, where and by whom.
There ware few full speed ahead by those involved or at least "the USAAF" in 1943. The USAAF kicked off the longer range for its fighters project in January 1942, end 1942 Eaker asked for drop tanks but not as a main priority, switched fighter sorties to escort instead of sweep and also decided that escorting the bombers half way to target was enough to keep losses sustainable long term, despite the gap in losses between escorted and unescorted raids. There were undoubtedly USAAF officers who kept the self defending bomber idea as truth in 1944, while others in 1942 were of the no escorts no way school. The USAAF ended in between the two in the ETO until October 1943, despite mounting evidence.Did the right arm know what the left arm was doing? This, along with what I said earlier about Eaker, is one reason why I'm reluctant to accept the "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" bomber mafia argument.
All P-47B and C had 305 US gallons of internal fuel, or 254 imperial gallons. The 1943 P-47 had a greater range on internal fuel than the P-38, but could not carry as much external fuel. At the same time the 8th Air Force tactics tended to limit the early B-17 to targets within 320 miles of base, the Tokyo tanks were needed to go further. However escort tactics come into play, flying at bomber speed means a longer range but lower chances of intercepting the interceptors, flying at fighter speed cuts radius.My understanding, FWIW, was that 305 gallons came with the D series. For 1943, the vast majority were C models......My understanding, FWIW, was that 305 gallons came with the D series. For 1943, the vast majority were C models.
The time period was early 1944, which I usually interpret as Q1. The fact the 8th received a P-38 group late August 1943 and another late September, with 1 going operational mid October and the other on the last day of the year is irrelevant. By early March 1944, 3 P-38, 7 P-47 and 3 P-51 groups operational, plus the 9th Air Force P-51.The second group of P-38s arrived on the last day of the year so the picture isn't quite as clear as it seems at first glance. By that time, the weather would have been unsuitable.
Almost everything is wrong.What's wrong with it? As i've said, it's largely noise, in my opinion, anyway.
The most basic reading would reveal the ferry tanks were used on operations, half filled as that was the fuel needed to get a P-47 from start up to near operational height.I assume this is theoretical, rather than operational.
No, it was a matter of doctrine and ignoring considerable numbers of warning flags.Then it was a matter of priorities.
Actually the USAAF ordered 150 P-51 for the British in September 1941, then what became a mixture of P-51A and B in August 1942, then in late December 1942 what became P-51C from Dallas and in early January 1943 what became mostly P-51B, making the program as of end January 1943,We also agree that the USAAF had already placed an order for 1,350 P-51s in October, 1942.
As I see it the difference is what evidence is being emphasised, pro or anti a given figure instead of examining the entire situation, the main characters have to be on 1 side or the other, using various quotes from their many writings.There are plenty of people in recent times who have been really, really hard on Arnold
Which it was not in early 1943 given the Battle of the Atlantic situation. Next came Casablanca, or rather the Desert Air Force experience, defeat the enemy air force before the land battle starts, things work much better than way.As I said: to attack the Luftwaffe at all levels, from the factory to the fighter pilot.
February to June 1944 the USAAF ETO fighters claimed 1,824 enemy aircraft in the air, add the 400 odd from November 1943 to January 1944, compare that to the 250 odd claims for the rest of 1943, yet somehow the superiority of 1944 was built on the unescorted raids in 1943? The near 100% Jagdwaffe pilot casualties January to May 1944?Perhaps the best answer to that is to look at what happened between February and June, 1944. But by then the USAAF could go literally anywhere in Germany and bomb whatever it wanted. That is air superiority.
If the objective is to fight the Luftwaffe whatever targets the Luftwaffe would react to, like oil in mid 1944. As for meaningful, in terms of bomb damage, the 8th Air force dropped 520,487.90 tons of bombs on Germany, cumulative totals to end of month in 1943.My question again is: what meaningful attacks could be made in 1943 if places like Bremen, Anklam, Schweinfurt and Regensburg had to be scratched from the list because they were too hard?
Australia suffered heavily in WWI and was probably the most militarised of the western allies in WWII.Pretty much everyone in our street had served either in WWI or WWII. Most of my Dad's friends were WWII veterans. He was too young to go.
Lockheed only built 1479 P-38s in 1942 and 349 of them were built in Oct, Nov, Dec so many of them were still in the US.The USAAF managed to get 3 P-38 groups to Europe late 1942/early 1943, they were sent to the Mediterranean where they proved useful, but no more were sent there.
J.D. suggest you get yourself a copy of drgondog's (Bill's) book about the origins and development of the Mustang as a starting point.
View attachment 858841
At that time, the USAAF is well aware, as is NAA, of the Mustang X conversion of Mustang I airframes in the UK by Rolls-Royce, there is plenty of information flowing back and forth between the UK and USA on that front. NAA has already received the go ahead for the XP-51B program to fit the Packard built R-R Merlin into the two NA-91 Mustang airframes as a proof of concept and prototype/trials aircraft. Key timing for that depends on delivery of engines from Packard. R-R fly the first of their modified Mustang X in October 1942, with the trials proving the paper calculations on the performance improvements, particularly at altitude by fitting a Merlin to the Mustang airframe. NAA fly the first of their converted P-51s fitted with a Packard-Merlin in November 1942. End result, when the trials performance figures are seen by both RAF and USAAF, decision is to progress the Merlin engine Mustang program as a priority and to divert a large chunk of the NA-99 P-51A build contract over to P-51B airframes. As a result only 310 P-51A built before production switches to P-51B. Large orders then placed for further follow on production batches of Merlin engine Mustangs. Bill's book - see above - sets it all out.
Other good book on the subject is the one from the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust by David Birch - Rolls-Royce and the Mustang.
View attachment 858842
Merlin Mustang was indeed very effective. The only shortcoming was that it was effective in 1944.If the Mustang had just been redesigned and fitted with the Merlin XX or Packard Merlin 28 it would never have been as effective. David Birch's book has a lot of detail.
You'll never believe it but my copy arrived yesterday!J.D. suggest you get yourself a copy of drgondog's (Bill's) book about the origins and development of the Mustang as a starting point.
Tomo - there were two critical paths to the operational P-51B. The Airframe Design and Packard deliveries.Merlin Mustang was indeed very effective. The only shortcoming was that it was effective in 1944.
If it was fitted with a Merlin 45, 50, XX or 28, it would've been a less effective, but it would've been a thing in 1943. Similar goes with the Mustang X, if all of the Mustang Is were converted to that by, say, mid-1943.
Thank you for the very informative post.Result? A small delay
Ditto for the fate of the Mustang X. I can see no reason that RAF would have Ever agreed to install destabilizing 85-gal fuselage tank, or any reason to deliver them to 8th AF 'as is'. Nor did RAF require daylight long range escort. In any case, even the RAF Mustang III (without 85-gal fuse tank) was not dispatched to support 8th AF until Big Week, in small numbers, performing the same range withdrawal support at 8th AF P-47s.