Greg Spouts Off About P-38 Drop Tanks (8 Viewers)

[drgondog]

Thank you again for the informative post.
I've never suggested that engine-less airframes are shipped from NAA to the UK, but that Mustang airframes already in the UK get towards the Mk.X. That is for 1943, not for 1944.

I understood that, but pulling all Mustang I depends on decision date may not yield a significant fighter force due to continuing operational attrition.

BTW - when you say 'in far higher quantities in 1943' - do you mean in, say, Spring to early Summer of 1943, or after October of 1943?

After October, actually after December when both Inglewood and Dallas were producing at near optimal quantities.

Rommel was not in Normandy before late 1943.

Agreed, but beachead defenses were in play from 1941.

As per your questions:
- 1) Wasn't the RAF doing the escort as much as the combat radius allowed them? RAF was also doing the high-altitude recon, up to the interwar German-Polish border. There are still the Tyhoons and Spitfires doing the short range low altitude work, that I have no wish to remove from there.
- 2) Spitfire.
- C) Of course.

Yes, but IIRC the RAF could barely reach Amsterdam or west France.

Thank you.
As you can see, I have no intention to sweep any Mustang (be it in parts or as whole aircraft) from NAA to be given to just anyone.

Lol - I get that.

 

[tomo pauk]

After October, actually after December when both Inglewood and Dallas were producing at near optimal quantities.

From the point of view of the 8th AF bombers and their people, that means no P-51s in 1943.

Agreed, but beachead defenses were in play from 1941.

Make the photos of these defenses by using short-range aircraft.

Yes, but IIRC the RAF could barely reach Amsterdam or west France.

That is my point here all the time - Spitfires cannot do what the Mustangs can, due to the relatively small fuel tankage and worse mileage of the former.

 

[ColFord]

Oct 24th 1941, First Mustang I arrives in England.
Nov 11th 1941, four more arrive in England.
Jan 1942, Mustang I production peaks at 92 per month.
April 1942. No 2 squadron is the first unit to get Mustang Is in the RAF.
May 10th 1942 is the first combat operation. No 2 squadron raids (strafes?) a German airfield near the French coast.
July 1942, last Mustang I comes off the production line. Here is were things get tricky, How many Mustang Is are in California or in transit?
Aug 18th 1942 The British had 4 squadrons equipped with Mustang Is. Where are the rest of the 617 Mustang Is? In British depots? on ship? being crated at Inglewood?
Aug 19th 1942. Perspective. The RAF also has 4 squadrons of Typhoons for Dieppe and just 4 squadrons of Spitfire IXs in service.
Jan 1943, RAF has 15 squadrons of Allison powered Mustangs in service.
This will rise to a max total of 21 squadrons. (when?)

No.26 Squadron RAF gets its first NA-73 Mustang I on 9 January 1942.

Other Squadrons as follows:

Added to that other RAF users of Mustang I in UK in at least more than 4 on strength at any given time include: 41 Operational Training Unit (OTU for Army Co-operation and Tactical Reconnaissance); A&AEE; AFDU; 83 GSU; 84GSU; No.285 (AA Support) Sqn.

Getting equipped with the Mustang is one thing, getting operational is another. Of note, a number of the RAF Army Co-operation Squadrons that re-equipped with the Mustang I in late 1942 into early 1943 eg: 168, 171, 231, had continued to operate the Curtiss P-40 Tomahawk in the AC role until such time as sufficient Mustangs became available for them to re-equip with the Mustang.

No.26 Squadron RAF based at RAF Gatwick, flew the first recorded operational sortie on the Mustang I on 10 May 1942 against a Luftwaffe airfield near Berck-sur-Mer and also strafed railway engine and rolling stock nearby and a coastal defence (AA) post.

Most of the units who didn't fly operational sorties before October-November 1942 were largely taken up in that timeframe since receiving their Mustangs participating in a number of large scale Army exercise in the UK - doing Army Co-operation. You also then have the situation in late 1942 where a number of the ACC Squadrons equipped with the Mustang I are earmarked to be moved to the MTO to provide the Tac/R support for Operation Torch. Included in those are No.225 Squadron and No.241 Squadron who passed their Mustang I back into the 'pool' and proceeded overseas without their aircraft, re-equipping with Hurricane IIs on arrival in the MTO.

Make the photos of these defenses by using short-range aircraft.

But that doesn't meet the requirements of the planners from Day 1. The required low level coverage from late 1942 was of all beaches from the Hook of Holland, all the way around to Lannion on the Brest Peninsular AND all potential airborne landing zones behind the immediate potential beach head areas AND all enemy installations, encampments, supply depots, repair facilities, airfields AND road, rail and river/canal transport and resupply lines to a depth of 100 miles from the coast. The planners require that for not just the initial landing planning, but for the planning for the development and expansion of the beach head, including location where the Allied forces would place their airfields, supply dumps, etc; and then planning for expected enemy counter attacks and movement of enemy reserves from other areas; and then eventual Allied breakout from beach head area. In terms of those short range aircraft available at the time. The Hawker Hurricane wasn't suitable - range, performance and camera installations. (When it was suggested in early 1944 that some of the Tac/R Squadrons earmarked to particpate in the Invasion might have to re-equip with Hurricanes due to a potential shortage of Allison engine Mustangs, there was a near revolt. The re-equipment of some of the Squadrons with Spitfire Vs was considered at the time barely acceptable and when the two squadrons equipped with the Spitfire V were used in relation to the invasion in 1944, their role was strictly limited to naval gunfire direction where they would be able to utilise a drop tank to extend their time on station - which they could not use in the low level Tac/R role to extend range.) The Spitfire V which would be the primary replacement candidate wasn't suitable - first issue in 1942 into 1943 is getting airframes released from Fighter Command, demand at home and abroad was exceeding available supply - so who then misses out Malta? MTO? Darwin? Reverse Lend Lease to USAAF in ETO or MTO? And if they are planning for a 1943 invasion they will be wanting to ramp up the number of dedicated 'pure' fighter squadrons. Range is second issue with Spitfire V, as well as limited camera installations without significant modifications - PRU was having enough trouble keeping up with their own demands for modifications for PR Spitfires at that time. Hawker Typhoon wasn't suitable - range, performance, reliability and as was discovered in 1944 when the Typhoon was utilised briefly in the role, significant issues in relation to the quality of photography obtained due to transmission of engine and airframe vibration to the cameras. And more broadly at the inter-service and political level, any percieved reduction in the capabilities of the aircraft available to perform the role would be siezed upon by the War Office - they were already highly reticent about any potential invasion of France in 1943 for a number of factors and the level and degree of support being provided and proposed to be provided by the RAF in the plans for any potential invasion in 1943 was considered by the War Office to be underwhelming and unbalanced.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Hawker Hurricane wasn't suitable - range, performance and camera installations. (When it was suggested in early 1944 that some of the Tac/R Squadrons earmarked to particpate in the Invasion might have to re-equip with Hurricanes due to a potential shortage of Allison engine Mustangs, there was a near revolt.

I would not suggest the Hurricane.

The re-equipment of some of the Squadrons with Spitfire Vs was considered at the time barely acceptable and when the two squadrons equipped with the Spitfire V were used in relation to the invasion in 1944, their role was strictly limited to naval gunfire direction where they would be able to utilise a drop tank to extend their time on station - which they could not use in the low level Tac/R role to extend range.) The Spitfire V which would be the primary replacement candidate wasn't suitable - first issue in 1942 into 1943 is getting airframes released from Fighter Command, demand at home and abroad was exceeding available supply

The RAF FC will be getting way more than a good replacement for the Spitfire V in the fighter role.
Spitifre V will most likely be getting some fuel tankage in the wings so the range/endurance can be better, as well as the Merlin 20s nicked from Hurricane production (yes, these engines fit on the Spitfires) so the low-alt performance can be improved vs. the 'normal' Mk.Vs.

- so who then misses out Malta? MTO? Darwin? Reverse Lend Lease to USAAF in ETO or MTO?

In 1943, Russians get less of Hurricanes and Spitfires, say about 200 of each less? They - Stalin - was complaining that Hurricanes are not at their liking anyway.

And more broadly at the inter-service and political level, any percieved reduction in the capabilities of the aircraft available to perform the role would be siezed upon by the War Office - they were already highly reticent about any potential invasion of France in 1943 for a number of factors and the level and degree of support being provided and proposed to be provided by the RAF in the plans for any potential invasion in 1943 was considered by the War Office to be underwhelming and unbalanced.

I'll agree that the whole idea of Mustang X conversions in hundreds will be much more troubled by the inter-service and political messing, rather than by some technical or tactical considerations.