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Unusually for me I was trying to be fair. Parks instructions were for pilots and squadrons and wings that had to climb to high altitude above their airfields, not to some RV point over the N Sea, that may be done more economically, I dont know. But the general point is the same, you cant do the same with a lot of anything that you can with one or two. Ask a school teacher about going on a walk with 30 children or their own 2 sons/daughters. To me the significant thing in Parks instructions was reference to a "good squadron", he was no longer a pilot he was a commander, in statistics he would refer to a good squadron and in his other work try to turn a bad squadron into a good one, thereby upping the average, in this case by decreasing time taken.[Emphasis added -- Thump]
Forming up takes both time and fuel. I don't understand why our friend here doesn't seem to take that into account.
To me the significant thing in Parks instructions was reference to a "good squadron", he was no longer a pilot he was a commander, in statistics he would refer to a good squadron and in his other work try to turn a bad squadron into a good one, thereby upping the average, in this case by decreasing time taken.
Try the same calculations at 20 or 25,000 feet! We beat this horse to death several dozen pages ago of course to no avail.From the Manual for P-39N-1-BE. Gross weight at startup: 7,967 lbs. So, use the figures for 8,000 lbs.
I was likely being kind when I called the P-39N a loggerheaded, swag-bellied, hedge pig ... uuhhh ... groundhog.
After "proving" that the P-39N could have been one of the periods best interceptors, we are now seeing the proof that it could also have been the second best long range escort fighter, if only the fools could have seen it at the time.Try the same calculations at 20 or 25,000 feet! We beat this horse to death several dozen pages ago of course to no avail.
[...] To throw some gasoline into the fire, we haven't even brought up this fact during our range/ fuel calculations, let alone not flying in a straight formation, constantly making shallow turns within the flight while not only making yourself a harder target but scanning for enemy aircraft.
If you maintain a V or finger 4. The Germans had a good technique (I think developed by Molders) where the wingman would move up while the lead tightened his turn, this was done simultaneously within a 4 plane formation.And now the planes on either outlier of the formation are having to horse the throttles around even more as the formation turns to and fro' doing the escort weave. This in a plane that might not get me to the bathroom without a refueling stop.
And now the planes on either outlier of the formation are having to horse the throttles around even more as the formation turns to and fro' doing the escort weave. This in a plane that might not get me to the bathroom without a refueling stop.
This only applies if combat was at around 15,000ft.. Assume we allow for 10 minutes of combat. Combat would be at 44.5 MAP and 147 gal per hour per 8,000 pound chart, top left. 10 minutes at 147 gph burns 24.5 gallons, leaving 102.3 gallons of fuel.
Wasn't that the problem with Bader's Big Wing during the BoB?
And in my truck, cruise control is near-useless in traffic because I must consistently adjust throttle to "fly" with traffic. It's great on open highway when everyone is doing the same speed. It follows that I get better mileage driving an empty road than stop-and-go through a freeway jam.
If you maintain a V or finger 4. The Germans had a good technique (I think developed by Molders) where the wingman would move up while the lead tightened his turn, this was done simultaneously within a 4 plane formation.
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What I showed was just a basic maneuver for fighters, no apologies required. You got it right.I had larger escort formations in mind when I wrote that, and I should have made that plain. My apologies for not being as clear as I should have. And if I'm not understanding escort protocols right, that's on me. I'm thinking 24 fighters or so weaving above a formation of bombers. Am I missing something? Did sections stay in specific sectors over the bombers?
If you maintain a V or finger 4. The Germans had a good technique (I think developed by Molders) where the wingman would move up while the lead tightened his turn, this was done simultaneously within a 4 plane formation.
I got that from Caldwell's book on JG26, yeah.A Kette, which was based around the Rotte, which was a fighter and his wingman, two Rotten made a Kette, [...]
Drgondog would be the expert but my understanding is that the fighter formations did a series of S turns over the bombers to keep their airspeed up while remaining over or near the bombers. Trying to accelerate form bomber cruise speed to combat speed for fighters could take 2 or more minutes, at which time the attackers have come and gone.I had larger escort formations in mind when I wrote that, and I should have made that plain. My apologies for not being as clear as I should have. And if I'm not understanding escort protocols right, that's on me. I'm thinking 24 fighters or so weaving above a formation of bombers. Am I missing something? Did sections stay in specific sectors over the bombers?
rottenfuhrer
Drgondog would be the expert but my understanding is that the fighter formations did a series of S turns over the bombers to keep their airspeed up while remaining over or near the bombers. Trying to accelerate form bomber cruise speed to combat speed for fighters could take 2 or more minutes, at which time the attackers have come and gone.
Thanks for that. I think where my thinking might be faulty is whether all the fighters did a weave over the bomber formation, or whether fighter sections performed individual weaves over an assigned sector of the formation?
And on the other side of the coin, when Goering tried his first massed raids on London headwinds dropped the bombers speed down to around 110MPH which screwed up all calculations about escorting them. These headwinds gave the big wing time to form up and put in a spectacular late show.A bomber travelling at 180 mph would reach Canterbury in 14 minutes. Even without adding in time for forming up, and assuming the Wing used Spitfires rather than the slower Hurricanes, which would take longer, a German bomber formation would be over Canterbury in half the time it would take a single fighter from Duxford to get there. The whole thing was absurd."