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Please expand above.
Can we get back to the ranges quoted in the pilot's manual?
The fuel from sea level figure from the Takeoff, Climb and Landing chart should not be used to compute range, or the instructions in the Flight Operation Instruction Chart (range chart) would say so.
The ranges in the range chart have already been adjusted down to reflect both the fuel used in climbing from 5000ft and the miles of range gained during the climb.
Can we get back to the ranges quoted in the pilot's manual?
The fuel from sea level figure from the Takeoff, Climb and Landing chart should not be used to compute range, or the instructions in the Flight Operation Instruction Chart (range chart) would say so.
The ranges in the range chart have already been adjusted down to reflect both the fuel used in climbing from 5000ft and the miles of range gained during the climb.
It depends on how you want to compute the range.
The USAAF, rightly or wrongly, in their comparisons charts did not credit any horizontal movement in the climb to 25,000 ft cruising altitude. This was to allow for forming up and rendezvousing with the bombers. If you want to come up a figure for range/radius to compare to the planes listed in the chart then you have to use the conditions the chart says.
You have yet to explain how a plane that reaches 5000ft gets to 20,000-25,000 without using addition fuel over and above the fuel needed to cruise at 5,000.
Please show in the manual or on the charts where it says " ranges in the range chart have already been adjusted down to reflect both the fuel used in climbing from 5000ft and the miles of range gained during the climb" It sure doesn't say that on the P-39Q charts.
If you wish to use your method of range commutation then please compute the ranges for the planes you are comparing to the same way.
BTW, everybody should read the fine print at the bottom of the Climb charts for all aircraft.
For some reason the US did not use standard temperature and pressure for these charts. They used 0 degrees C (32 degrees F) instead of 15 degrees C/59 degrees F.
Some charts, like the P-39Q chart leave the correction blank, other charts say 10% increase in climb time for EVERY 10 degrees C above 0.
For some reason the US did not use standard temperature and pressure for these charts.
Also consider that if it was done you're looking at a stress analysis of the area and more than likely more reinforcing, unless you limit maneuvers, don't self seal the tanks and fly that fuel off first. (Thinking out loud, giving every opportunity for the old dog to succeed)"Wings had the SPACE to mount fuel tanks where the wing guns were mounted. "
You would have space in two dimensions. Now the question is it was smart.
The area behind the cockpit is not hard to access
I doubt it if you apply the same principles of taking out things that weigh a lot. Take the armour cannon and IFF out of a Typhoon and how does it go? Comparing to a 1943 P-39N why not compare to a Tempest Mk V, first production aircraft flew June 21 1943.There is no doubt that the P39N1 has a better performance than the Typhoon at 25,000 ft but the range of the P39N1 would be close to miserable at that altitude and the chances of a successful interception low, make that very low if your spotted when climbing up.
In the real world if you were fighting Typhoons then at 25,000 ft you would be taking on the Spit IX and good luck with that. Even the Spitfire had a better range than any version of the P39 from late 1944 on, and no one would claim that the range of the Spitfire was it's strength.
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My bold/italics.
I think this sums up the P-39/63 pretty well. When I read Yeager's autobiography back in the '80's, I got the impression it was a pretty good plane to fly, but not to fight in. Although he did say that he would have happily gone to war in it if he had to. Now a guy like that would probably do alright in it but I doubt he would want to take it above 20,000 feet and fight. Who would?
don't self seal the tanks and fly that fuel off first. (Thinking out loud, giving every opportunity for the old dog to succeed)
Actually I (and in my opinion no one else) needs to expand on anything.
Lets sum it up
The P39N1 operating at temperatures that were higher than normal acceptable operating levels turned in a good performance but it should be noted that this was at the cost of a very low range and without any payload. This operating at above normal temperatures is no small thing. You can get away with it for a certain period of time but sooner or later it will bite you.
The Typhoon another aircraft of a similar era matched the performance of the P39N1 in the early years and comfortably exceed the performance of the P39N1 from early1944 on. It should also be noted that the Typhoon carrying 2,000lb of bombs had a greater range than the P39N1 when clean and about 1,000 miles with drop tanks.
There is no doubt that the P39N1 has a better performance than the Typhoon at 25,000 ft but the range of the P39N1 would be close to miserable at that altitude and the chances of a successful interception low, make that very low if your spotted when climbing up.
In the real world if you were fighting Typhoons then at 25,000 ft you would be taking on the Spit IX and good luck with that. Even the Spitfire had a better range than any version of the P39 from late 1944 on, and no one would claim that the range of the Spitfire was it's strength.
You can of course add additional fuel tanks but then you effectively end up with the P39Q which has a much lower performance. You can of course tweak the performance by removing the two 0.5 in the wings of the P39Q but that would make little difference to the speed. Worth noting that the Me109 with 2 x 20mm underwing guns only lost 8mph when carrying them and the 0.5 was a lot smaller so the difference is likely to be no more than 4 mph.
You have a lot of fantasies about how to change the performance of the P39. New engines, removing armour, adding fuel tanks, deleting equipment with hardly any evidence (because there is next to none that exists) to back up your assertions that such changes were Easy, Obvious, Simple, Straight forward. Yet has been pointed out to you on any number of occasions, tens of thousands of flight engineers, hundreds of engineers/designers at Bell and thousands of pilots many of whom fought and died in the P39. Educated, trained and experienced people who knew every bolt, cable and rivet in the aircraft didn't make those changes. Why, because they knew it couldn't be done. Yet you, with no training or experience know better than all these people
I was an Artificer in the Fleet Air Arm specialising in airframes and engines. This was a training regime that took five years and I know that your statements and assumptions are puerile. I use that word deliberately because if you look up the definition, it fits. There are many others on this forum with infinitely more training and experience than myself in aviation, these are people I listen too and learn from, people who have also told you with supporting evidence that its impossible. Yet you again, know better than all of us.
No, we do not need to expand , you need to expand to give evidence to support your massive assumptions, and/or explain why you have such omnipotent knowledge on this subject.
Please expand above.Actually I (and in my opinion no one else) needs to expand on anything.
Lets sum it up
The P39N1 operating at temperatures that were higher than normal acceptable operating levels turned in a good performance but it should be noted that this was at the cost of a very low range and without any payload. This operating at above normal temperatures is no small thing. You can get away with it for a certain period of time but sooner or later it will bite you. P-38, P-47 and P-51 also had higher than acceptable operating temperatures. See my past post in this thread.
The Typhoon another aircraft of a similar era matched the performance of the P39N1 in the early years and comfortably exceed the performance of the P39N1 from early1944 on. It should also be noted that the Typhoon carrying 2,000lb of bombs had a greater range than the P39N1 when clean and about 1,000 miles with drop tanks. Not sure where you are getting this range figure, Typhoon had a huge engine and not a large fuel capacity. And by 1944 the P-39 should have had a two stage engine. I'm talking about 1943.
There is no doubt that the P39N1 has a better performance than the Typhoon at 25,000 ft but the range of the P39N1 would be close to miserable at that altitude and the chances of a successful interception low, make that very low if your spotted when climbing up. Range of a 120gal P-39N with a 110gal drop tank is about the same as a 1943 P-47 with the same drop tank. Long previous thread about that. Still, not great range but more fuel could be carried internally.
In the real world if you were fighting Typhoons then at 25,000 ft you would be taking on the Spit IX and good luck with that. Even the Spitfire had a better range than any version of the P39 from late 1944 on, and no one would claim that the range of the Spitfire was it's strength. Uh, what 1943 plane could take on a Spit IX? Ultralight plane with a two stage Merlin, I have always stated that a P-39N couldn't keep up with a Spitfire IX at high altitude. Good thing we weren't fighting Spitfire IXs.
You can of course add additional fuel tanks but then you effectively end up with the P39Q which has a much lower performance. You know that adding fuel to the wing would mean removing the wing guns, right? About the same weight. You can of course tweak the performance by removing the two 0.5 in the wings of the P39Q but that would make little difference to the speed. Exactly 14mph per wwiiaircraftperformance.org. I'll take it. Worth noting that the Me109 with 2 x 20mm underwing guns only lost 8mph when carrying them and the 0.5 was a lot smaller so the difference is likely to be no more than 4 mph. 14 mph, look at the tests.
You have a lot of fantasies about how to change the performance of the P39. New engines, removing armour, adding fuel tanks, deleting equipment with hardly any evidence (because there is next to none that exists) to back up your assertions that such changes were Easy, Obvious, Simple, Straight forward. Yet has been pointed out to you on any number of occasions, tens of thousands of flight engineers, hundreds of engineers/designers at Bell and thousands of pilots many of whom fought and died in the P39. Educated, trained and experienced people who knew every bolt, cable and rivet in the aircraft didn't make those changes. Why, because they knew it couldn't be done. Yet you, with no training or experience know better than all these people I believe the Soviets made almost exactly these changes and defeated the Luftwaffe with it.
I was an Artificer in the Fleet Air Arm specialising in airframes and engines. This was a training regime that took five years and I know that your statements and assumptions are puerile. I use that word deliberately because if you look up the definition, it fits. There are many others on this forum with infinitely more training and experience than myself in aviation, these are people I listen too and learn from, people who have also told you with supporting evidence that its impossible. Yet you again, know better than all of us. All I know is what is in wwiiaircraftperformance.org, pilots manuals, Vee's for Victory, Soviet history and some hearsay from men like Chuck Yeager. And I don't know what puerile means. And you misspelled specializing.
No, we do not need to expand , you need to expand to give evidence to support your massive assumptions, and/or explain why you have such omnipotent knowledge on this subject.