Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2 (2 Viewers)

No you have stated in many of your posts that Germans owe the United States and have made it very clear that all Germans from 1930 to 1945 were just as evil as Hitler and that after 1945 they just wanted to deny everything that is not true. As for the Germans that lived during the Reich yes they were very easily pursuaded to Hitlers ideas but you try living in a Faschist dictatorship. You could not open your mouth to anything against the party or you simply disapeared along with your family. I dont think you would have done something to stop it had you been in there shoes.

try to stop it, if he was living in the great depression where you needed a weelbarrow full of money to by a loaf of bread, and someone comes allong and says he'll give you a job an a car, he'd proberly join them...........

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

No you have stated in many of your posts that Germans owe the United States and have made it very clear that all Germans from 1930 to 1945 were just as evil as Hitler and that after 1945 they just wanted to deny everything that is not true. As for the Germans that lived during the Reich yes they were very easily pursuaded to Hitlers ideas but you try living in a Faschist dictatorship. You could not open your mouth to anything against the party or you simply disapeared along with your family. I dont think you would have done something to stop it had you been in there shoes.

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I would have spoken agains the Nazi's prior to 1933. In 1933, I'd have left Germany, as many of my relatives did.

It is pointless to further argue the ethics of this issue. You have your position and are unwilling to even consider that some of your beliefs might not be correct, and I have mine and feel pretty confident about them as well. I ask you to someday try to watch the documentary "Shoah", just for your own sake. Beyond this, let's just agree to disagree.

As for Germany "owing" the USA. Yes I feel the Germans owe us enough that they should not have stood against us in our response to 911. The USA gave Germany something around $2.6 billion between 1946 and 1951, which amounts to something around $21 billion in todays dollars. And that does not include very low interest loans, some of which were later forgiven, and the huge investment in defending W. Germany from the Soviet block (which pumped $ in the W. German economy).

What has Germany done for the USA in return?

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Lunatic

Shown the World what Women look like on Steroids?????????

How did Germany go against the USA on 911, they supported the US about 911 they just disagreed with the US about Iraq and what does Iraq have to do with 911? Absolutly nothing. So was Germany wrong with that absolutely no. OK your family left Germany fine mine did not, does that make my family so bad because they loved there homeland so much not to leave. I guess so because your family did that so my family has to be evil nazis then.

HMMmmmmm.... Someone sounds like they had a nerve struck....

This argument has been going on for over a week.

I noticed.. Ive been back reading all yous guys posts since I got back into town..... DerAdler doesnt seem the type (Military) to get all worked up like this, hence the "Nerve" post......

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

How did Germany go against the USA on 911, they supported the US about 911 they just disagreed with the US about Iraq and what does Iraq have to do with 911? Absolutly nothing. So was Germany wrong with that absolutely no. OK your family left Germany fine mine did not, does that make my family so bad because they loved there homeland so much not to leave. I guess so because your family did that so my family has to be evil nazis then.

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You're mis-stating what I've said about WWII Germans. I've not said they were all "evil nazis", all I've said is they were bystanders and that they did know what was going on and chose, for whatever reasons, to do nothing about it, and that their post-war claims of ignorance are mostly lies.

My Jewish family members who stayed in Germany and the region in general, for the most part, died. My non-Jewish family members turned on their Jewish relations because they "loved their homland so much". Anyway, lets drop that aspect of this discussion okay? I appologize for having offended you, but the whole denial thing is a sore spot with me.

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If you want to get into a discussion about Iraq and why the USA's position is that it was critical to deal with Iraq as part of dealing with international terrorism, that is another topic. I too have a lot of problems with the war in Iraq, though I do believe Iraq did have to be dealt with eventually, I just dispute the wisdom of having done so now.

The point is that Germany knew what the USA's position was and chose to stand against us. This is something that Germany should not have done. They might have chosen to abstain but they should not have sided with France and Russia.

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Lunatic

If a country does not wish to go to war, there is nothing wrong with it, war is not pretty and I know that first hand. It would have been different if Germany would have been directly threatened by Iraq. As for France and Russia I think we all know why they disagreed, they were selling arms to Iraq throughout the whole sanctions. But still you can not condemn another country for not wishing to go to war. I am sorry you are wrong. Well anyhow for all you to know I guess I am an ignorant lyer in denial because my beliefs are not the same as yours.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

If a country does not wish to go to war, there is nothing wrong with it, war is not pretty and I know that first hand. It would have been different if Germany would have been directly threatened by Iraq. As for France and Russia I think we all know why they disagreed, they were selling arms to Iraq throughout the whole sanctions. But still you can not condemn another country for not wishing to go to war. I am sorry you are wrong. Well anyhow for all you to know I guess I am an ignorant lyer in denial because my beliefs are not the same as yours.

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I'm just disappointed that France and Germany forget so quickly who their frends are and lack any gratitude for the past. I think the USA should do the following things:

1) Reduce the American military bases in continental Europe to a size that fits our needs w/o regaurd to economic impacts on the hosting countries. Perhaps remove them altogether.

2) The USA needs to reduce its financing of the UN. Current UN financing levels for the relevant countries are:

USA: 25%
Germany: 9.6%
France: 6.5%
Russia: 2.9%

The USA should cut its UN funding in half.

3) Future European issues should be left to the Europeans to handle. The USA should never again send its military to solve a problem like that in the Balkins in the mid-90's. The USA was not "directly threatened" by that matter, so why should we put our people at risk for a purely European issue?

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I've never said you were a liar. I've said you refuse to consider that things were not as you think, and provided a source for you to learn the truth of the matter. If you choose not to do so, then yes, you are intentionally avoiding the truth.

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Lunatic

RG, I agree with most of what u just said...

I too have a lot of problems with the war in Iraq, though I do believe Iraq did have to be dealt with eventually, I just dispute the wisdom of having done so now.

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Yup..... We shoulda concentrated our efforts on Global Terrorism, than Saddam.. Although a threat, not an immediate one...

1) Reduce the American military bases in continental Europe to a size that fits our needs w/o regaurd to economic impacts on the hosting countries.

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Yup..... Great Idea.....

2) The USA needs to reduce its financing of the UN. The USA should cut its UN funding in half.

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Yup... Maybe we should just start our own World Relief Conglomerate.....

3) Future European issues should be left to the Europeans to handle.

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That I do not agree with.... If something big enough happens over there, it affects everyone globally.... Oil.... Industrials.... Economically....

Okay on pulling forces out of Europe I agree it would save a lot of money. On letting Europe take care of its own problems I agree as long as it is not too serious and does not affect the US because the US has its own problems and needs to take care of itself first. As for the war in Iraq I still do not understand how Germany not partacipating is such a problem with you. Iraq did not threaten Germany at all and was not much of a threat for the US either. So if they do not wish to die in Bush's personal war then so be it. It is there right to decide if they wish to fight in it or not. It has nothing to do with friends or not. I can say this because I am over here in Iraq and I did not vote for Bush. I too do not agree with the war. But being here I see the threat that he posed and it was not much. Yes he needed to go but at this time I dont think so. Yes he would have used chemical weapons again but not at this time. So again if Germany did not want to let its soldiers die in Bush's personal war then let it be. Lastly dont ever tell me that I am intentionally avoiding the truth. I know the truth and lived among Europeans my whole life. I know more about the situation then you think I do!

Nooo! don't leave! Think of the air shows you guys put on here!

We really cant put on airshows anyhow anymore, eversince we crashed at Rammstein and the Italian crash. I know when my unit flies to airshows we are just allowed to be static displays and nothing more. I know most of my buddies enjoy being stationed in Germany. They enjoy the chance to see Europe however it is costing a lot of money and the attitudes of people like RG_Lunatic just help make the Germans wish we would pull out.

DerAdler, it wasnt Bush's personal War, it is Americas War; Brits as well.... He had to go, sooner or later.... And some indications and intelligence suggest he was building up and researching certain WMD's.... He may not of had them ready, but he would have.... And he wanted them real bad.... He was saving up vast quantities of gold... Check out the pics below.... If you look at the pallet of gold bars you will see that there are 7 bars in each stack, 4 stacks in each row, and 8 rows. That are 224 bars at about 20 lbs each, which is 4480 lbs or 71,680 ounces. At $350.00 per ounce, that is $25,088,000.00 worth of gold on the pallet. Imagine how much more is inside......

Better to chop off ur pinky, than wait and have to cut off ur whole damn arm.....

I think that Americas Allies should have been just that... Americas Allies.... Germany didnt come through.... Some help would have been appreciated.. Theres freakin Croats helping out in Iraq for cryin out loud....

So again if Germany did not want to let its soldiers die in Bush's personal war then let it be.

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I guess we shouldnt have bothered to sit on ur border with East Germany, looking at all those shiny new Russian Tanks sittin there... Maybe we shouldnt have gotten involved in the European conflict.... If that was the case, the wall would have been broken down a long time ago...

By an Advancing Soviet Armor Spearhead.....

I too do not agree with the war.

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Yes he needed to go but at this time I dont think so.

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I agree 100% with u on those points brother.... Theres a time and place for everything... Usama Bin Laden and ALL Terrorism in general should have been #1 priority.. Gather all Nations to fight the cause...

Who wouldnt join up in a war againt GLOBAL terrorism????

Countries that harbor and promote terrorism.... Those are the first on the list.... Wipeout Terrorism at its roots... Imagine the Strike force the world could combine.... SEALS and Speznatz, and SAS and SF.....

The intellegence gathering capabilities of the Isrealiies and the US and the Brits and the Germans and the French and the Turkish?????

There would be NOWHERE for terrorists to hide.....

But I dont make US policy so......

I can say this because I am over here in Iraq and I did not vote for Bush.

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I was in the first Gulf War and I didnt vote for Bush either... Father or Son... And I have been involved in the Bush policy of War many many times, and have the Purple Hearts to prove it...

Politics has nothing, NOTHING to do with ur service to our beloved country.. I did what I was told, when and where, and to whoever my Commander in Chief decided I should...... And as u are doing now...... War is ugly and mean and the civilians are the ones that have the worst go.... Some of the crap I saw in Somolia still haunts me.. Some of the things I did in Bosnia still make me sick....

Damn this is a long post....

Trust me I agree with you on most of your points I believe that he had to go at some point. And dont take me wrong I would have loved it if Germany had joined, but they did not, that does not make them a bad country like RG_Lunatic is making them out to be. When it comes to the Global War on Terrorism, Germany has stood by the US. They are in Afganistan, Djibouti, Somalia, and other locations. German soldiers have died in the GWOT. However the war in Iraq was not the GWOT. And I do agree with you on the serving. I am not a fan of Bush but as a soldier I came to Iraq and I am doing my job no questions asked because it is my job as a soldier.

I thing RG was being alittle over enthusiastic maybe.... Germany isnt a bad country, but by not backing the US effort, they shunned themselves from our cultural ideas somewhat, and a certain % of the USA population feels strongly about supporting ur allies....

Dont knock him for that.... When I was alot younger, i felt very strong on these issues as well.....

I would not knock him for that if he would get off my back about how I am living in a state of denial because my beliefs are different than his. I do not shun his beliefs and he should not shun mine. I am a German who is blessed to also have American citizenship. I am proud of this but I will never stop being proud of my German people also. Yes some wrongs have been committed but we are a proud people and I am one of them. And my beliefs because of this are not wrong.