Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

[ljadw]

There are so many holes in this short sentence I spent some time wondering if it was worth writing an essay.

So instead I invite you to ask yourself this question and let us know what your answer is.

Question - If the War in the Atlantic has been lost, How are the Marines and the vast quantity equipment needed for an invasion, going to get to the Shetland Islands (which is in the Atlantic) in the first place?

I, in fact probably all of us await your response with interest.



Back to that lying word again. Ask yourself another question

Question - Do you really think Rundstedt would have issued the order without Hitler's agreement.


I find your almost total lack of understanding of the very basics of the control and command of Air Combat almost staggering. Bombers cruise at approx 200mph, it varies a bit naturally but that's a fair average. Intercept them say twenty five miles out and within eight minutes your over UK land. Where exactly is the fuel problem for the defenders?

A British fighter pilot lost over Britain could be saved, while if he was lost over the Channel.....
And it was better to shoot a German bomber over Britain than over the Channel:if he was shot over land, he was lost,while if he was shot over water, the Germans could save him .
Other point : why would FC attack the LW before it was over land ? As long it was over the Channel,it was no danger and as long it was over the Channel,it could be a trap for FC.
Radar did not give direction, height, speed, number of aircraft, or even if the aircraft were bombers or fighters .

 

[pbehn]

Fighters could only be operational during a short time ,thus, one can argue that it was better to attack the German bombers over Britain, not in the Channel.

That is the advantage of Radar, you send aircraft up to meet the opposition not to wait around. It was preferable to meet over land and pilots were told not to chase the LW out to sea because they probably wouldnt be rescued.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey ljadw:

re "Radar did not give direction, height, speed, number of aircraft, or even if the aircraft were bombers or fighters"

Chain Home radar gave direction, approximate height, approximate speed, and allowed an estimate of numbers in the formation.

 

[ljadw]

Wow...can you move goalposts any quicker?

I gave a number for France but then you add on Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. The total occupied area for those countries is roughly double that of the UK....and yet you persist in your belief that it needed 40 divisions to occupy the UK?

Also, what's the date for Askey's number? Does it coincide with preparations for Sea Lion perhaps? Forgive the skepticism but you have a habit of removing the context for many of your quotes and assertions. Just trying to understand the true details behind your headline figure.

The date for Askey's numbers is June 1941 .
The Germans used 43 divisions to occupy 45 million French ,Belgian and Dutch . How many would they need to occupy 49 million people in the UK and Ireland ?
They would not let Cork without defense .
The area of the UK + Ireland is some 300000 square km .
Occupied France + the Low Countries is not 600000 square km ,but the whole of France (550000 square km ) + the Low Countries is 610000 square km .Occupied France was some 60 % of France .

 

[pbehn]

The date for Askey's numbers is June 1941 .
The Germans used 43 divisions to occupy 45 million French ,Belgian and Dutch . How many would they need to occupy 49 million people in the UK and Ireland ?
They would not let Cork without defense .
The area of the UK + Ireland is some 300000 square km .
Occupied France + the Low Countries is not 600000 square km ,but the whole of France (550000 square km ) + the Low Countries is 610000 square km .Occupied France was some 60 % of France .

And these numbers didnt change with the invasion of Russia, involvement in Africa and Italy? Surely you are aware of Hitler's directives 51 and 52?

 

[ljadw]

And these numbers didnt change with the invasion of Russia, involvement in Africa and Italy? Surely you are aware of Hitler's directives 51 and 52?

The point was that if in June 1941 the UK + Ireland were occupied, this would demand additional forces, which Germany did not have .
The same can be said about a defeat and occupation of the SU : the forces needed for this would make an invasion of Britain impossible .
The stronger Germany was in the West, the weaker it would be in the East .
It was the same in 1914 : Aufmarschanweisung Ost would make a successful Schlieffen Plan impossible and a successful Schlieffen Plan would make a successful war in the East impossible .
That these numbers changed after June 1941 is irrelevant .
The point is that the more countries you occupy,the more forces are tied .

 

[ljadw]

That is the advantage of Radar, you send aircraft up to meet the opposition not to wait around. It was preferable to meet over land and pilots were told not to chase the LW out to sea because they probably wouldnt be rescued.

This had nothing to do with radar .Radar did not indicate the direction ,the height, the speed, the number,..of incoming aircraft .
Besides, it was from a military POV not needed to send aircraft to meet the opposition .
Dowding could have chosen as strategy to hold back FC til the day of the invasion , thus ,no Battle of Britain, but this would create political problems .
On the other hand, there were those who wanted a decisive air battle, but Dowding chose the middle way : a battle of attrition which would gain time til the weather would make Sealion impossible .

 

[ljadw]

There are so many holes in this short sentence I spent some time wondering if it was worth writing an essay.

So instead I invite you to ask yourself this question and let us know what your answer is.

Question - If the War in the Atlantic has been lost, How are the Marines and the vast quantity equipment needed for an invasion, going to get to the Shetland Islands (which is in the Atlantic) in the first place?

I, in fact probably all of us await your response with interest.



Back to that lying word again. Ask yourself another question

Question - Do you really think Rundstedt would have issued the order without Hitler's agreement.

The Marines were already present in Iceland and would be able to land on the Shetlands and the Highlands and no one would stop them if they were going from Inverness to London . No one said that after the liberation of London, the Marines would start Overlord .
The only who could stop them from liberating Britain would be the German occupation forces .
And about the Halt Order from Rundstedt : it was issued without Hitler's knowledge .Jodl wrote in his diary on May 25 :Führer leaves decision to AGA . (Source : The Blitzkrieg Legend P 295 )
The OKH was angry and annulled the order AND took away half of AG A from Rundstedt to give it to Bock . Also without Hitler's knowledge .And Hitler was angry especially because the OKH had totally changed Fall Gelb. without informing him .
The whole question was : who would be Hammer and Anvil at Dunkirk ? Normally the Hammer would be Rundstedt and the Anvil Bock, but now, Halder, who was hostile to Rundstedt, took away all PzD from AGA and gave them to Bock . (Blitzkrieg Legend P 294 : Rundstedt's temporary disempowerment ).
No wonder that Hitler was angry .

 

[pbehn]

This had nothing to do with radar .Radar did not indicate the direction ,the height, the speed, the number,..of incoming aircraft .
Besides, it was from a military POV not needed to send aircraft to meet the opposition .
Dowding could have chosen as strategy to hold back FC til the day of the invasion , thus ,no Battle of Britain, but this would create political problems .
On the other hand, there were those who wanted a decisive air battle, but Dowding chose the middle way : a battle of attrition which would gain time til the weather would make Sealion impossible .

I have already posted the link to the Radar pages web site which explains what Chain Home could do and how it did it, also the limits of what it could do. Its sensitivity and resolution was far better than the Germans thought possible, especially because it combined information from adjacent stations to form a plot, this was all part of the Dowding system. If it couldnt indicate height what was Chain Home Low about? If two adjacent stations detect a force then their position can be found by simple trigonometry, plotting their position over time gives speed. The number in a force is a question of operator experience and proximity to the station. Please read these The Radar Pages - Chain Home and stop posting your internet "facts" they are completely incorrect, the only thing that is true about them is that they are on the internet.

 

[The Basket]

This had nothing to do with radar .Radar did not indicate the direction ,the height, the speed, the number,..of incoming aircraft .
Besides, it was from a military POV not needed to send aircraft to meet the opposition .
Dowding could have chosen as strategy to hold back FC til the day of the invasion , thus ,no Battle of Britain, but this would create political problems .
On the other hand, there were those who wanted a decisive air battle, but Dowding chose the middle way : a battle of attrition which would gain time til the weather would make Sealion impossible .

You got be trolling bro.
Trollbot 3000 over here.
Political problems like British civilians been killed in air raids. That's a political problem and no doubt.

If you give Luftwaffe air supremacy over southern England then it makes Sealion more likely and not less.

The whole point of the RAF and the reason it came into existence is due to area bombing in ww1. If Dowding moved all fighters to Scotland waiting for winter then he would have been ran out of town.

 

[pbehn]

You got be trolling bro.
Trollbot 3000 over here.
Political problems like British civilians been killed in air raids. That's a political problem and no doubt.

If you give Luftwaffe air supremacy over southern England then it makes Sealion more likely and not less.

The whole point of the RAF and the reason it came into existence is due to area bombing in ww1. If Dowding moved all fighters to Scotland waiting for winter then he would have been ran out of town.

My mother had a similar strategy with shoes, she left them in the box until she got used to them.

 

[ljadw]

You got be trolling bro.
Trollbot 3000 over here.
Political problems like British civilians been killed in air raids. That's a political problem and no doubt.

If you give Luftwaffe air supremacy over southern England then it makes Sealion more likely and not less.

The whole point of the RAF and the reason it came into existence is due to area bombing in ww1. If Dowding moved all fighters to Scotland waiting for winter then he would have been ran out of town.

Who is talking about Scotland ?
retreating Group 11 to the North is not giving the LW air supremacy over southern England and air supremacy over southern England is not making Sealion more likely : FYI : the first condition for a successful Sealion was the possibility to transport the needed forces to southern England,and the Rhine barges could not do it .There are at least 5 other needed conditions and if ONE of them was absent, Sealion was out of the question .
Civilian casualties could become a major political problem as the tabloids would whine that the government abandoned the population .

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

One point : the semi-retirement of Rundstedt lasted only a few months : in 1942 he became OB West,succeeding Witzleben who was out for a cancer operation .

Thank you for the correction.

 

[ljadw]

Hey ljadw:

re "Radar did not give direction, height, speed, number of aircraft, or even if the aircraft were bombers or fighters"

Chain Home radar gave direction, approximate height, approximate speed, and allowed an estimate of numbers in the formation.

Estimates ?
When they passed the CH radar, the enemy aircraft could change direction,height, speed . The Radar could not look back .
The pivotal role of radar in the defeat of the LW during the Battle of Britain, is a myth .
From the RAF Museum : Radar the battle winner ?
''Once German bombers crossed the coastline, they were unsighted by radar and the Observer Corps had to plot enemy aircraft formations .''
In other words : enemy aircraft who had crossed the coast could go to London, or to Coventry, or to Liverpool, or to Manchester, ...... And no one could know it .

 

[tyrodtom]

Estimates ?
When they passed the CH radar, the enemy aircraft could change direction,height, speed . The Radar could not look back .
The pivotal role of radar in the defeat of the LW during the Battle of Britain, is a myth .
From the RAF Museum : Radar the battle winner ?
''Once German bombers crossed the coastline, they were unsighted by radar and the Observer Corps had to plot enemy aircraft formations .''
In other words : enemy aircraft who had crossed the coast could go to London, or to Coventry, or to Liverpool, or to Manchester, ...... And no one could know it .

You really need to take the time to educate yourself on Britain's early WW2 radar abilities, and the observer corps, among other subjects.
Right now your post are just providing comic relief for the forum.

 

[ljadw]

You really need to take the time to educate yourself on Britain's early WW2 radar abilities, and the observer corps, among other subjects.
Right now your post are just providing comic relief for the forum.

I see that you can not refute what I was saying .
I ask again : could the CH radar tell which British city would be attacked by the LW ?
Yes or no .

 

[pbehn]

I see that you can not refute what I was saying .
I ask again : could the CH radar tell which British city would be attacked by the LW ?
Yes or no .

Dear me, are you going to persist with this? You tell us where and on which date any LW aircraft were unintercepted and free to roam towards any city, which city was attacked? It did happen a few times, but rarely in 11 or 12 group. If what you are saying is true the battle was different to historical records, again, just by posting things doesnt make them facts.

 

[tyrodtom]

There was a lot more than just Chain Home in the warning system.
Like I already posted, educate yourself .

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Clearly this guy's never flown an airplane, operated a radar, or been in the service. And been pretty selective in his reading.

 

[buffnut453]

Clearly this guy's never flown an airplane, operated a radar, or been in the service. And been pretty selective in his reading.

But he knows 2 key things: (1) he's right, and (2) the rest of us are idiots.