Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

[pbehn]

An idea of how much thought and planning went into the Dowding system is shown in this. The plotting clock, showed people looking at the plot how old the information they were looking at was, updated every 5 minutes.

Information received by the Group Operations Room concerning the height, bearing and strength of approaching hostile aircraft would be plotted on large table maps. Group would then alert the most appropriate or its subordinate Sector Operations Rooms, who would take charge of the local aerial activity once their squadrons had been "scrambled".
Work in the Group Ops Rooms was hectic. Numerous incoming messages had to be sorted, prioritised and disseminated at speed; late information could send a precious squadron of Hurricanes or Spitfires looking for hostile targets on bearings and at altitudes long since vacated by an enemy raid, which in August 1940 would often be heading for the fighter stations themselves. An instant method of weeding out stale information from current reports was therefore devised.
All fresh reports would be colour coded either red, yellow or blue according to the time they were received, using this special clock which had its dial painted with the trio of colours at five-minute intervals in succession around the dial.
The colour indicated by the minute hand at the time the report was received would be the colour given to the message and plotted on the Operations Room table map.
Thus ensuring that the Controller remained in full command of the developing battle."
Miscellanea

 

[Peter Gunn]

A British fighter pilot lost over Britain could be saved, while if he was lost over the Channel.....
And it was better to shoot a German bomber over Britain than over the Channel:if he was shot over land, he was lost,while if he was shot over water, the Germans could save him .

So if an RAF pilot was shot down over the channel he was lost but the LW could rescue THEIR pilots shot down over the channel? Why do the Germans get to save their pilots but not the British? Clearly you haven't read much about the BoB.

Other point : why would FC attack the LW before it was over land ? As long it was over the Channel,it was no danger and as long it was over the Channel,it could be a trap for FC.

If a strike is inbound over the channel it surely isn't going to bomb the fish so clearly it IS a "danger", or is your definition of the word different than mine?

Also please to explain how it could be a trap for FC?

Radar did not give direction, height, speed, number of aircraft, or even if the aircraft were bombers or fighters .

Uh... what?
Lastly I think you need to do some research on what radar (even CH in 1940) could and could not do as clearly you have a lot to learn on that subject.

 

[ljadw]

Dear me, are you going to persist with this? You tell us where and on which date any LW aircraft were unintercepted and free to roam towards any city, which city was attacked? It did happen a few times, but rarely in 11 or 12 group. If what you are saying is true the battle was different to historical records, again, just by posting things doesnt make them facts.

Interceptions of German bombers did not happen because of CH radar .
Are you saying that the RAF Museum was wrong when it said that the CH Radar could not follow enemy aircraft after these crossed the coastline ?

 

[ljadw]

An idea of how much thought and planning went into the Dowding system is shown in this. The plotting clock, showed people looking at the plot how old the information they were looking at was, updated every 5 minutes.

View attachment 627470

Information received by the Group Operations Room concerning the height, bearing and strength of approaching hostile aircraft would be plotted on large table maps. Group would then alert the most appropriate or its subordinate Sector Operations Rooms, who would take charge of the local aerial activity once their squadrons had been "scrambled".
Work in the Group Ops Rooms was hectic. Numerous incoming messages had to be sorted, prioritised and disseminated at speed; late information could send a precious squadron of Hurricanes or Spitfires looking for hostile targets on bearings and at altitudes long since vacated by an enemy raid, which in August 1940 would often be heading for the fighter stations themselves. An instant method of weeding out stale information from current reports was therefore devised.
All fresh reports would be colour coded either red, yellow or blue according to the time they were received, using this special clock which had its dial painted with the trio of colours at five-minute intervals in succession around the dial.
The colour indicated by the minute hand at the time the report was received would be the colour given to the message and plotted on the Operations Room table map.
Thus ensuring that the Controller remained in full command of the developing battle."
Miscellanea

The Controller in the Communication Room did not remain in full command of the developing battle .This was done by the German/British local commander in the air .The Controller in the Communication Room was not present in the area where the fighting took place and he did not know how the battle was developing .
The air battles in 1940 (81 years ago ) were not games directed by people in a room using a computer .

 

[pbehn]

Interceptions of German bombers did not happen because of CH radar .
Are you saying that the RAF Museum was wrong when it said that the CH Radar could not follow enemy aircraft after these crossed the coastline ?

This is ridiculous, are you saying the British built and manned an early warning system and then sat back to see what happens if you dont use the information? Interceptions happened BEFORE the attack crossed the coast, after passing the line of CH stations they were reported by the Observer Corps. The information from both was combined by the operations filter room AS YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD.

 

[pbehn]

The Controller in the Communication Room did not remain in full command of the developing battle .This was done by the German/British local commander in the air .The Controller in the Communication Room was not present in the area where the fighting took place and he did not know how the battle was developing .
The air battles in 1940 (81 years ago ) were not games directed by people in a room using a computer .

I know, that is what the link says, describing what was done in 1940, it wasnt done by any "local commander in the air" you can have your own opinion but not your own facts. You are completely ignoring anything and everything posted that doesnt suit your view, or historical facts and realities.

 

[Airframes]

Is there a brick wall anywhere close ?
I think I need to bash my head against one !!!!

 

[ljadw]

So if an RAF pilot was shot down over the channel he was lost but the LW could rescue THEIR pilots shot down over the channel? Why do the Germans get to save their pilots but not the British? Clearly you haven't read much about the BoB.


If a strike is inbound over the channel it surely isn't going to bomb the fish so clearly it IS a "danger", or is your definition of the word different than mine?

Also please to explain how it could be a trap for FC?


Uh... what?
Lastly I think you need to do some research on what radar (even CH in 1940) could and could not do as clearly you have a lot to learn on that subject.

British pilots lost over the Channel became POWs or died, because the LW had air superiority over the Channel ,because the fighting over the Channel was closer to the French coast .FC was that wise not to chase retreating Germans over the Channel and the LW was that wise not to chase single British fighters who went back to England .In both cases there was always the danger of a group of enemy fighters waiting for the prey to come close .
British Fighters could only operate during a small time, thus they would not wast time and fuel to chase retreating German aircraft outside Britain or attack German bombers before they were crossing the coast .
And in a lot of cases German fighters (Me 109 ) could not protect German bombers when these entered British air space .
For all fighters the radius of action was very limited, which was a gain for the RAF.

An incoming group of German bombers could be a trap to lure FC in a battle with a superior German fighter force .

 

[pbehn]

Is there a brick wall anywhere close ?
I think I need to bash my head against one !!!!

Is the right room for an argument?
I've told you once.
No, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
When?
Just now.
No, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
No, you didn't.
Excuse me. Is the five minute argument or the half hour?
Oh, just the five minute.
Thank you. Anyway, I did tell you.
No, you most certainly did not.
Let's get one thing straight: I most definitely told you.
No, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
No, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
No, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
This isn't an argument!
Yes, it is.
No, it isn't. It's just contradiction.
No, it isn't.
Yes, it is. You just contradicted me.
No, I didn't.
Yes, you did.
No, no, no.
You did just then.
That's ludicrous.
Oh, this is futile.
No, it isn't.
I came in here for a good argument.
No, you didn't. You came in here for an argument.
Well, argument isn't the same as contradiction.
Can be.
No, it can't.
An argument is a collective series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No, it isn't.
Yes, it is. It isn't just contradiction.
Look, if I argue with you. I must take a contrary position.
But it isn't just saying No, it isn't.
Yes, it is.
No, it isn't. Argument's an intellectual protest,
Contradiction just the automatic opposite of any statement the other person makes.
No, it isn't.
Yes, it is.
Not at all.
Now, look-- (Bell dings)
Good morning.
What?
That's it. Good morning.
I was just getting interested.
I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
That was not five minutes.
I'm afraid it was.
Oh, no, it wasn't. (Argument professional looks around the room)
I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
What?
If you want to go on arguing you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
But that was not five minutes, just now. (Professional whistles) Oh, come on.
If you want to continue arguing, you must pay for another five minutes.
Oh, fine. Here.
Thank you.
Well?
Well what?
That was not five minutes, just then.
I told you, you have to pay.
I just paid.
No, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
No, you didn't.
I don't want to argue about that.
Well, you didn't pay.
Ah, but if I didn't pay, why are you arguing? Aha! Got you.
No, you haven't.
Yes, I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
Oh, I've had enough of this.
No, you haven't.
Oh, shut up!

 

[pbehn]

British pilots lost over the Channel became POWs or died, because the LW had air superiority over the Channel ,because the fighting over the Channel was closer to the French coast .FC was that wise not to chase retreating Germans over the Channel and the LW was that wise not to chase single British fighters who went back to England .In both cases there was always the danger of a group of enemy fighters waiting for the prey to come close .
British Fighters could only operate during a small time, thus they would not wast time and fuel to chase retreating German aircraft outside Britain or attack German bombers before they were crossing the coast .
And in a lot of cases German fighters (Me 109 ) could not protect German bombers when these entered British air space .
For all fighters the radius of action was very limited, which was a gain for the RAF.

An incoming group of German bombers could be a trap to lure FC in a battle with a superior German fighter force .

You just made that up. Both sides could have pilots POW or drowned, no one had air superiority over the channel, that is what the battle was all about. Anyone parachuting or ditching into the Channel is in danger of drowning.

 

[ljadw]

There was a lot more than just Chain Home in the warning system.
Like I already posted, educate yourself .

Yes there was a lot more, but I replied not to what was not said,but to what was argued and to those who used the CH radar as argument .
The RAF Museum said clearly the following : once the German bombers crossed the coastline,they were unsighted by radar .
This debunks the claims of the pivotal importance of radar .
If you disagree with what the RAF Museum said , you have to give your reasons why the RAF Museum was wrong and not to use attacks ad hominem .

 

[buffnut453]

British pilots lost over the Channel became POWs or died, because the LW had air superiority over the Channel ,because the fighting over the Channel was closer to the French coast .FC was that wise not to chase retreating Germans over the Channel and the LW was that wise not to chase single British fighters who went back to England .In both cases there was always the danger of a group of enemy fighters waiting for the prey to come close .
British Fighters could only operate during a small time, thus they would not wast time and fuel to chase retreating German aircraft outside Britain or attack German bombers before they were crossing the coast .
And in a lot of cases German fighters (Me 109 ) could not protect German bombers when these entered British air space .
For all fighters the radius of action was very limited, which was a gain for the RAF.

An incoming group of German bombers could be a trap to lure FC in a battle with a superior German fighter force .

Pretty much every statement in that post is complete and utter garbage. The Luftwaffe NEVER had air superiority over the Channel. They were never able to operate freely over the Channel except close to the French coast.

Regardless, what does air superiority over the Channel have to do with the UK's ability to rescue downed pilots? Have you ever heard of these things - apparently they were rather successful:

You say there was danger for British fighters being bounced over the Channel...but that's EXACTLY where the UK's "useless" radar was looking, and the air defence network could warn any formation before being bounced.

Radius of action for British and German fighters may have been limited (compared to the later P-51, for example) but it wasn't so short that operations couldn't be maintained over the Channel.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's a pity that the RAF wasn't able to send their fighters across the channel into France.
Just imagine if they had a combat radius that was more than 50-60 miles - those pesky Germans would have been in big trouble!

 

[buffnut453]

Yes there was a lot more, but I replied not to what was not said,but to what was argued and to those who used the CH radar as argument .
The RAF Museum said clearly the following : once the German bombers crossed the coastline,they were unsighted by radar .
This debunks the claims of the pivotal importance of radar .
If you disagree with what the RAF Museum said , you have to give your reasons why the RAF Museum was wrong and not to use attacks ad hominem .

The RAF Museum "soundbite" debunks NOTHING. You're the one stating that interceptions should have happened after the Luftwaffe formations were over the UK. That is NOT the way Fighter Command responded to incoming raids. They intercepted as far out as possible.

The whole purpose of radar is to provide warning of an incoming raid, with sufficient location and height information so that the integrated air defence system (IADS) could direct fighters to the intercept. Radar was a pivotal part of the entire IADS set-up which, as others have noted, included the Control Rooms and the Observer Corps. It was an INTEGRATED SYSTEM because that works better than relying on just one technology.

You really need to stop spouting this nonsense!

 

[pbehn]

It's a pity that the RAF wasn't able to send their fighters across the channel into France.
Just imagine if they had a combat radius that was more than 50-60 miles - those pesky Germans would have been in big trouble!

Didnt the RAF operate a protective screen around Dunkerque? Didnt the RAF bomb invasion barges in France and Belgium? Asking for a friend.

 

[Airframes]

Debunks the claims of the pivotal importance of radar ??!!!
What a load of b*ll*cks !
I would respectfully suggest that you study the entire layout, function and operation of the "Dowding System", including the role of the Observer Corps ( late Royal Observer Corps, in recognition of their skilled and highly important work during the BoB), and also take in context the statement(s) made by the RAFM.
If the British CH Radar and early warning system was so useless, then why has it formed the basis of every early warning system still in use today, across the World ??

 

[pbehn]

Yes there was a lot more, but I replied not to what was not said,but to what was argued and to those who used the CH radar as argument .
The RAF Museum said clearly the following : once the German bombers crossed the coastline,they were unsighted by radar .
This debunks the claims of the pivotal importance of radar .
If you disagree with what the RAF Museum said , you have to give your reasons why the RAF Museum was wrong and not to use attacks ad hominem .

You are deliberately miss quoting the RAF museum to support your series of contradictions. A chain home station was a collection of electronic devices, the Dowding system combined all the information from all sources to coordinate defence. You are as confused about the situation now as Goering was in 1940.

 

[pbehn]

BTW, I just found out today by re reading the RADAR pages that the CH stations could detect inland. The first task of an operator when detecting a new echo was to verify which side of the aerials it came from. Those on the land side were ignored.

Quote
The routine of establishing a new track was quite complex. If the operator noticed a new echo, which would first show as a tiny break in the noise, she would at once 'sense' it to determine that it was in fact in front of the station before announcing 'I have a new echo at such and such a range'. She would then sense again, to determine whether the target was north or south of the 'line of shoot'. She would then attempt, by swinging the gonio for a minimum, to take a bearing, and then a height.

 

[swampyankee]

Hitler would have been a complete idiot if he would not demand the occupation of Britain : a neutral Britain could always become again a hostile Britain .

Originally, Hitler thought that the UK would become a "reliable" neutral; when its government decided that Germany was an existential threat, and the UK seriously resisted, Hitler's new policy was closer to extermination.

So if an RAF pilot was shot down over the channel he was lost but the LW could rescue THEIR pilots shot down over the channel? Why do the Germans get to save their pilots but not the British? Clearly you haven't read much about the BoB.

I've read that the Luftwaffe had a much better-organized search-and-rescue service, at least initially, but the British got better fairly quickly.

 

[GrauGeist]

Didnt the RAF operate a protective screen around Dunkerque? Didnt the RAF bomb invasion barges in France and Belgium? Asking for a friend.

Let me check Wikipedia...