Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

[pbehn]

I think that I may say that I know more than anyone here about the role,situation and importance of the German railways and water ways during WW2 . I have in my possession
The Collapse of the German War economy 1944-1945 ( Mierzejewski )
Die Reichsbahn im Ostfeldzug (Pottgiesser )
Die Eisenbahnen im Zeiten Weltkrieg (Kreidler )
About the water ways :
ONE example (From Mierzejewski)
In 1940/1941 Germany produced 485 million ton of hard and brown coal,of which 34 million ton were transported by inland waterways (rivers and canals ).There was a fleet of 19000 ships sailing in the water ways with a tonnage of 8,2 million ton, This fleet transported in 1943 82 million ton of freight (37 % was coal ) and Berlin was the biggest harbor and handled 13,5 million ton of freight .
The railways consumed 32 million ton of hard coal .

Wow, have you read any of them or just parsed them for the quotes you need.

 

[pbehn]

So I'm guessing that the Soviet Union needed a lot of trucks to supply its troops as well. If only the Soviet Union could have leased or be loaned trucks from somewhere. The EAllies might have won.

They could have used some locomotives too, but who made locos and trucks at the time. The pipe mill I worked at in Russia was at a site that made railway wagon wheels, for the whole of Russias railways, Ive never seen so many fffing wheels in my life, incredible.

 

[SaparotRob]

They could have used some locomotives too, but who made locos and trucks at the time. The pipe mill I worked at in Russia was at a site that made railway wagon wheels, for the whole of Russias railways, Ive never seen so many fffing wheels in my life, incredible.
View attachment 629673

That picture made me very nostalgic. Looks like one of the floors at the Hillside maintenance facility of the LIRR.

 

[pbehn]

That picture made me very nostalgic. Looks like one of the floors at the Hillside maintenance facility of the LIRR.

My father worked on the railways in UK at one of their biggest maintenance facilities but Russia and China are something else, stuff we despatched in China arrived two to three weeks later.

 

[ljadw]

So I'm guessing that the Soviet Union needed a lot of trucks to supply its troops as well. If only the Soviet Union could have leased or be loaned trucks from somewhere. The EAllies might have won.

You are comparing apples and oranges : the oil that was needed in Germany is not the same as the oil that the Red Army needed. Trucks were used for short distances only and needed roads .
The oil used by the economy in Germany was transported by rail and by waterways,because these were more efficient than trucks . The oil of the Red Army was transported by the Russian rail,almost to the front and not by trucks because of the distances and the almost total shortage of decent roads in the USSR .
The roads in Germany were better but still worse than the waterways and railways . One example : it would be stupid to transport the crude oil produced in NW Germany to the Ruhr or to Silesia by truck: a truck could transport some 3 ton,a train 400 ton,and ships 800 ton .
The Soviets also used trains to send oil to the front and to the plants .

 

[SaparotRob]

There's something about your post about shipping oil. I just can't put my finger on it.

 

[ljadw]

There's nothing wrong being an iconoclast, but I've never seen anyone so attached to that outlook that virtually everything in history that we've all read is "wrong."

If I wrote "The Sun rises in the East", he would probably argue that, first with "The sun doesn't rise, the Earth rotates" pedantry, then by explaining that "East is really West if you go far enough".

The sun does not rise, the earth rotates . And California is the west of the US for people living in NY, but it is the east for the Japanese .

 

[SaparotRob]

And no matter where you go, there you are.

 

[pbehn]

You are comparing apples and oranges : the oil that was needed in Germany is not the same as the oil that the Red Army needed. Trucks were used for short distances only and needed roads .
The oil used by the economy in Germany was transported by rail and by waterways,because these were more efficient than trucks . The oil of the Red Army was transported by the Russian rail,almost to the front and not by trucks because of the distances and the almost total shortage of decent roads in the USSR .
The roads in Germany were better but still worse than the waterways and railways . One example : it would be stupid to transport the crude oil produced in NW Germany to the Ruhr or to Silesia by truck: a truck could transport some 3 ton,a train 400 ton,and ships 800 ton .
The Soviets also used trains to send oil to the front and to the plants .

Congratulations on your new discovery, the train. Used to shift cargo in UK from 1825 and in Germany since 1835. To have a road network you need cars and trucks but the first cars and trucks obviously had to be able to go on unmetalled roads (dirt tracks) The roads in Russia still are still rough and ready because the country is so big.

 

[ljadw]

There's something about your post about shipping oil. I just can't put my finger on it.

In 1933 1,084,571 ton of petroleum was transported on the Rhine Source Petroleum Tanker Shipping on German inland waterways P 5
In 1970 1,342,000 ton of petroleum arrived in West Berlin by Tankers . (Same source : P 9 )
In 1938 the Germans started the construction of the Westhafen Canal (3,1 km ) from Spandau to Charlottenburg. The construction was interrupted in 1939 .
A canal between Spandau and Charlottenburg was better than a railway or a road .

 

[pbehn]

There's something about your post about shipping oil. I just can't put my finger on it.

If you make locomotives in England and have to deliver one to Nuremburg in Germany, how do you get it there, bearing in mind they dont yet have railways? This is a great tale Adler (locomotive) - Wikipedia

 

[ljadw]

Most of the Romanian oil for Germany also was transported by ship,through the Danube . The French made plans in December 11939 to interrupt these transports .

 

[pbehn]

In 1933 1,084,571 ton of petroleum was transported on the Rhine Source Petroleum Tanker Shipping on German inland waterways P 5
In 1970 1,342,000 ton of petroleum arrived in West Berlin by Tankers . (Same source : P 9 )
In 1938 the Germans started the construction of the Westhafen Canal (3,1 km ) from Spandau to Charlottenburg. The construction was interrupted in 1939 .
A canal between Spandau and Charlottenburg was better than a railway or a road .

Are you pulling our legs Spandau to Charlottenburg canal is 2 miles long and connects a river to a ship canal. You can only construct such a canal when you already have a river and a ship canal 2 miles apart.

 

[pbehn]

Most of the Romanian oil for Germany also was transported by ship,through the Danube . The French made plans in December 11939 to interrupt these transports .

Why didnt the French just put Danubes all over France?

 

[GrauGeist]

Ok, so originally, rail was either non-existant or not used. Now rail was essential because roads were unreliable.
The shifting emphasis now seems to be special rivers all over Europe for transporting oil, because trucks can only drive short distances.

Then there's this new revelation that German oil is different than Soviet oil - so what was the difference? The writing on the label perhaps?

 

[pbehn]

Ok, so originally, rail was either non-existant or not used. Now rail was essential because roads were unreliable.
The shifting emphasis now seems to be special rivers all over Europe for transporting oil, because trucks can only drive short distances.

Then there's this new revelation that German oil is different than Soviet oil - so what was the difference? The writing on the label perhaps?

German oil isn't as Cyrillic, you need the viscosity. sulphur content and ignition temperature of Cyrillic oils to use the Soviet transport system (a set of facts I just invented)

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You are comparing apples and oranges : the oil that was needed in Germany is not the same as the oil that the Red Army needed.

Please explicate.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The sun does not rise, the earth rotates . And California is the west of the US for people living in NY, but it is the east for the Japanese .

That's great. Now if you could just explain how historians great and small over the years got along without your insights.

 

[GrauGeist]

That's great. Now if you could just explain how historians great and small over the years got along without your insights.

However, they clearly don't realize that to a Californian bearing 090 degrees, Japan is due east...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

However, they clearly don't realize that to a Californian bearing 090 degrees, Japan is due east...

Geographers too must come to a reckoning with our resident genius.