Gunther Rall

BiffF15 · Aug 18, 2015

Greg,

That's the thing. The military won't put those little planes into a contested environment, they would be nothing more than little blue stars on the bad guys jets. They have some great self protection suites on them, but you can't jam a bullet. I also scoffed that flying over Afghanistan in a turbo prop was the equivalent of flying a fighter downtown night one of Desert Storm, but in the military's eye it's all "combat" time.

The bad guys can show up with their pretty helmets, and in return they will get shown some love in 12', 9'+, and 20mm increments...

Cheers,
Biff

GregP · Aug 18, 2015

If that's what they're doing with PC-12's, King Airs, and Merlins, then we are seriously misusing assets. Let's hope the assets in question aren't ALL being used for such missions. I concede that a Scorpion would do that better than a King Air, and if I had the ability to do so, I would take a close look at how our assets are being employed.

I've been a staunch Air Force supporter but, if that's how we're using our assets, I may take a different tack in the future, not that it will do any good. Hopefully, it's only a few of them and not the fleet. One inventory would answer that question if I were in the position to do so. If it's only a few, so be it. If it's all or most, I'd probably flood the used aircraft market with former Air Force turboprops and take an active hand in how these things get used.

BiffF15 · Aug 18, 2015

Greg,

The USAF isn't misusing it's assets, nor are all the C-12's used in the MC-12 role. When you ask for off the shelf components, it's what you get. And it works. The Scorpion would work better in a LOT of cases in my opine.

Cheers,
Biff

FLYBOYJ · Aug 18, 2015

I've worked several programs where an off the shelf asset was used in a special role. I could tell you that a lot of thought goes into the mission, the aircraft and equipment to be used to fulfill the mission requirement, to include risk mitigation, crew safety and growth potential. The people within the military coming up with the mission requirement and the people modifying these aircraft are very smart as the folks deploying and flying them.

For the record I'm working on a side project that involves NAVAIR owned C-12s. There aren't very many special ops aircraft in the numbers I've been shown. Most of them are used for transport with the largest fleet at Corpus Christi Texas and those are used as trainers.

GregP · Aug 18, 2015

If we do that to few, it's fine. If we have a fleet of them, I'd take issue. Sounds like we have some, but not as many as maybe I thought. If so, no problem.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 18, 2015

I'm guesstimating there's 30 + special ops C-12s used by all services. In comparison there's about 125 C-12s in Corpus, at least that many scattered around the world used by the Navy and Marine Corps for transport logistics. Probably similar numbers with the USAF and US Army.

GregP · Aug 18, 2015

Seems like a decent mix. I'd hate to think they bought transports and converted them all to ISR ... if they did that, I'd decline to fund small transports in the future without specifying the use of same in the appropriation, to be the use for all time. Converting SOME seems like a good expedient.

Milosh · Aug 19, 2015

USAF as of June 2015

https://i.imgur.com/Ao9UdzT.jpg

USN air arm as of May 2015

http://i.imgur.com/1XinXPA.png

US Marine aviation as of May 2015

http://i.imgur.com/7Xt2Hay.png

Large graphics, so just the links.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 19, 2015

GregP said:
Seems like a decent mix. I'd hate to think they bought transports and converted them all to ISR ... if they did that, I'd decline to fund small transports in the future without specifying the use of same in the appropriation, to be the use for all time. Converting SOME seems like a good expedient.

I've seen some cases where a small number of commercial off the shelf transports were purchased specifically for special ops.

I've worked on this one years ago.

Airborne Reconnaissance - Low (ARL)

You will also have some aircraft purchased for a specific mission and for one reason or another that mission goes away. The aircraft is "turned in" and many times another government agency picks up the asset and makes use out of it. If no one picks it up it goes to DRMO. I was involved with this "reallocation." It involved about 10 aircraft that went to state agencies.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 19, 2015

BTW - the company that sold these to the AF had a VP who was good friends with Gunter Rall, they flew F-104s together many years ago, so I am keeping this thread on subject!!!!

le_steph40 · Aug 19, 2015

GregP said:
Does anyone out there have a victory list for Gunter Rall? I have them for Hartmann, Barkhorn, and a few others from the top ten, but can't seem to find one for Herr Rall.

Would appreciate it.

Yes, I have it....

BiffF15 · Aug 19, 2015

FlyboyJ,

If able pass who was flying the SE A/C. Very cool looking, I think the USAF operated something similar in Vietnam.

I've worked with the ARL folks before. That thing has some legs on it!

Cheers,
Biff

GregP · Aug 19, 2015

Hi le_steph40,

Can I convince you to post it? I have 274 of his 275 and am looking for the "missing" victory.

Hi FlyboyJ, VERY interesting aircaft. Reminds me of the Lockheed YO-3A ... but probably nowhere near as quiet. What was the Sherriff's Office doing with them? Looking for drug crops?

FLYBOYJ · Aug 19, 2015

BiffF15 said:
FlyboyJ,

If able pass who was flying the SE A/C. Very cool looking, I think the USAF operated something similar in Vietnam.

I've worked with the ARL folks before. That thing has some legs on it!

Cheers,
Biff

GregP said:
Hi FlyboyJ, VERY interesting aircaft. Reminds me of the Lockheed YO-3A ... but probably nowhere near as quiet. What was the Sherriff's Office doing with them? Looking for drug crops?

Biff, I spent time in Panama with ARL. Fun program, drank a lot of Balboa beer. The White bird is actually a TG-14 motorglider that was operated at USAFA

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/off-topic-misc-/tg-14s-leaving-usafa-11885.html

Greg - they were used in Alabama - surveillance, traffic control and sometimes drug interdiction. Dale and Henry counties were the major operators. They actually busted some illegal pot growers and a moonshiner!

GregP · Aug 19, 2015

Hi Joe,

It looks like an Aeromot AMT-100 Ximango. I wonder how an Alabama Sheriff's Office settled on that aircraft?

le_steph40 · Aug 19, 2015

GregP said:
Hi le_steph40,

Can I convince you to post it? I have 274 of his 275 and am looking for the "missing" victory.

Hi FlyboyJ, VERY interesting aircaft. Reminds me of the Lockheed YO-3A ... but probably nowhere near as quiet. What was the Sherriff's Office doing with them? Looking for drug crops?

Here is a link
RALL Günther

bobbysocks · Aug 19, 2015

all of those LAGGs and 1 P-47

GregP · Aug 19, 2015

Thanks le_steph40,

That link shows 238 victories and I have 274 already, but I appreciate it a lot!

I show 1 P-47, 1 P-38, 1 P-40, 18 P-39's, 1 A-20, 1 B-25, 3 Spitfires, and the rest Soviet type of which the vast majority are LaGG's.

I have a file with 344 or Erich Hartmann's 352, but haven't managed to get all 352 of his, either. I show him with 1 P-51, 1 P-40, 1 B-26, 3 A-20's, 82 P-39's, and the rest Soviet types, of which most were 188 LaGG's plus another 8 LaGG-3's. The LaGG's weren't broken out by type, but were likely largely LaGG-3's.

As an interesting aside, Hartmann reported the height of the combat in 319 of the 344 victory records I have. That's a pretty good sample size! The highest was at 6,500 m, the lowest was at 20 m, and the average was at 2,627 m or 8,619 feet. The standard deviation is 1,468 m. So high altitude performance wasn't very important to Hartmann a LOT of the time.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 19, 2015

GregP said:
Hi Joe,

It looks like an Aeromot AMT-100 Ximango. I wonder how an Alabama Sheriff's Office settled on that aircraft?

Actually its an AMT-200. "Free" is a great way to settle on an aircraft!

le_steph40 · Aug 19, 2015

GregP said:
Thanks le_steph40,

That link shows 238 victories and I have 274 already, but I appreciate it a lot!

I show 1 P-47, 1 P-38, 1 P-40, 18 P-39's, 1 A-20, 1 B-25, 3 Spitfires, and the rest Soviet type of which the vast majority are LaGG's.

I have a file with 344 or Erich Hartmann's 352, but haven't managed to get all 352 of his, either. I show him with 1 P-51, 1 P-40, 1 B-26, 3 A-20's, 82 P-39's, and the rest Soviet types, of which most were 188 LaGG's plus another 8 LaGG-3's. The LaGG's weren't broken out by type, but were likely largely LaGG-3's.

As an interesting aside, Hartmann reported the height of the combat in 319 of the 344 victory records I have. That's a pretty good sample size! The highest was at 6,500 m, the lowest was at 20 m, and the average was at 2,627 m or 8,619 feet. The standard deviation is 1,468 m. So high altitude performance wasn't very important to Hartmann a LOT of the time.

Greg, I have 275 on my Excel file completed with "Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945"
LaGG are Lagg, La-5, La5-F and La-5FN

Gunther Rall

Tech Sergeant

Major

Tech Sergeant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Major

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Chief Master Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

Major

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Major

Chief Master Sergeant

Chief Master Sergeant

Major

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Chief Master Sergeant

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